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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

Beads of Courage


 
  #1  
Old 2011-04-11, 7:24pm
Kurt_ Kurt_ is offline
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Default Large Burner Question

Hello. With summer almost around the corner, I can almost get back outside and do some lampworking. This year, I have my sights set on the 50mm tubing I bought last year. But I have one problem: I don't have a large enough burner to do so.

I'm currently using a #1 oxy-propane cutting tip with an oxy-acetylene setup converted to propane. It works up to about 25mm boro tubing, but it just doesn't heat up a large enough area.

Now, I know that my torch can output enough gas, I just need to make a custom tip for it. That's no problem, since all I have to do is model a custom tip on the computer and get some CNC shop to cut it out for me. I don't have the money to spend $500 on a proper burner, so don't try to convince me otherwise.

My question, simply, is this: I can't see this in videos, since cameras can't capture something so bright. On a large burner, like the Nortel Major, which holes let out oxygen, and which holes let out propane? Does it alternate between the two in a checkerboard pattern? Could someone with one of these torches please let me know?

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  #2  
Old 2011-04-11, 10:03pm
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ArtcoInc ArtcoInc is offline
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On the top part of the torch, you can make out 7 tubes bundled together. These are for the propane, and the oxygen comes out of the gaps around the tubes.

Likewise, on the bottom part of the torch ... tubes = propane, gaps = oxygen.

Malcolm
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  #3  
Old 2011-04-12, 7:54am
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IF you are really in a pinch and cutting tip is to small, get a (oxy/acetylene) "rosebud"....

http://www.toughweld.com/products/14...p-victor-style

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Old 2011-04-12, 7:59am
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Conrad Hoffman Conrad Hoffman is offline
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A similar thought passed through my head some time back- how would you design a torch head such that a CNC machine could cut all the passages? They can do incredibly fine work with tiny end mills, but the depth is limited. I'm not sure how to arrange passages to get the fuel gas and oxygen routed to the right ports on the surface. Maybe a sandwich design, though now you have the sealing issues between the layers. If you can figure it out, there's the possibility of a whole new torch head design, something like a thin square or round head supported on a couple vertical pipes.
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Old 2011-04-12, 10:06am
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cheng076 cheng076 is offline
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Typically the tubes are supported by a diaphram(s) and are soldered/brazed/welded into it. This is an application that even CNC techniques will not work to produce a finished piece IMHO. Unless you have an unlimited wallet. While machine work, drilling, facing, etc will be required there will need to be assembly and sealing problems to deal with. You're looking at many thousands of dollars.

Rosebud tips come in many sizes and since they are premix will be hotter than a similar size (No. holes, size holes) torch. Might just work, never seen it done.

Last edited by cheng076; 2011-04-12 at 10:09am.
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Old 2011-04-14, 11:04am
Kurt_ Kurt_ is offline
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After some thought, I have a few more thoughts, and a few more questions:

1) What existing torches can melt 50mm tubing enough to work with it? Are there any with removable tips? I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of simply making an adapter to fit standard tips on to a victor torch.

2) If any of you have ever seen a cutting tip, you'll know that (at least Victor's) are a two-piece design. It wouldn't be THAT hard to design something similar that would essentially be two concentric cylinders, the middle letting gas out, the outer one propane, and the top with holes to let it all out. It wouldn't matter if it mixed or not, and the seal is taken care of by the cutting torch. But again, I'm thinking it may be easiest to buy a suitable tip and machine an adapter. That's definitely the easiest route so far.

3) Regarding hooking up an oxygen concentrator and an oxygen tank in parallel: I've seen this mentioned somewhere online, but can't find any more information on it. Can someone tell me what kind of splitter/adapter I would need to do this? I assume it's probably a 'Y' splitter and a check valve for the oxycon. Right?

As far as rosebud tips, I'm pretty sure they won't get hot enough for 50mmx5mm boro tubing, based on what internet people are saying.
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Old 2011-04-14, 5:17pm
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I don't have anything to compare with, and I don't know how much speed you need, but based on the way my Bullet Burner melts 20mm heavy wall boro, I have to believe it wouldn't have much trouble with 50mm if the outer was cranked up and you weren't in a big hurry. Consumption might be an issue; the factory says 75 scfh nat gas and 150 scfh oxygen. That would drain my half size oxygen tank in short order. No doubt a bigger torch would make shorter work of the job, plus let you heat a larger area.
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Old 2011-04-15, 9:36am
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Kurt,
1) when you ask what existing torches can melt 50mm tube are you asking what glassworking torches or what welding/burning torches? There are many glass working torches out there that will do 50mm easily. The larger GTTs, Bethlehams, and Carlisles for example. Welding/burning torches, not so much, as the requirements are different and the torches are designed for different purposes. One of the bigger 'rosebud' tips is probably your best bet if it will work at all on that large glass.

2) A cutting tip for all torches is a short (apx 2") solid copper piece that has a mixing chamber and gass channels leading to the face where holes or ports direct the mixed gas and where the flame is established. The design is very technical and precise. You seem to be oversimplifying such that you are, to me anyway, going in a very dangerous direction. Even a relatively small chamber filled with a flamable gas/oxy mixture can be extremely dangerous. example; car engine cylinder.

3) Oxycons are not made to have their outlets closed off. Oxy cylinders generally put out much higher pressures. I read your post as trying to run both into the same line at the same time. Mixing gasses by pressure is extremely tricky. If you just want to be able to run one or the other and switch between them then you need a 4 way valve set up so that when switched to the cylinder the oxycon will be venting to the invironment and when switched to the oxycon the cylinder will be closed off. Cheapest way to do that is with quick connects. The common 'Western Industries' brand has a check valve in the female side. Remove this check valve in the one on your oxycon so that when disconnected it vents. Do not remove the one on the cylinder side and it will shut off when disconnected. The valving and piping to set up a simple crossover system is complicated and costly. I know as I have been exploring just such a system.

Your last comment confirms what I had thought. Sometimes it is not possible to adapt one technology to another application. There are a lot of very smart and capable people doing glass and there is a reason why there are little or no adaptations of welding torches to large scale glass working. Be very careful in your experiments and stay safe.

PJH

Last edited by cheng076; 2011-04-15 at 9:41am.
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  #9  
Old 2011-04-15, 3:00pm
Kurt_ Kurt_ is offline
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Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. Y'all have been most helpful, if I come to a solution I'll show it to you.

But did you ever think of it this way: Both systems run in the exact same way, tanked oxygen and propane going through regulators, exiting a nozzle. The ONLY real difference between a cutting torch and a bench burner is the nozzle they use. It's my goal in life to start a business making things that aren't available yet. A torch nozzle for lampworking, for example. Why spend $500 when I can design and make a nozzle myself?

One final question: What's the diameter of the nozzle's holes on said larger burners, like the one in the first post? 1.5 inches, I assume, but I could be very wrong.
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Old 2011-04-15, 5:12pm
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My last post. Check out the National 8M torch. It is the only lampworking/glassworking torch that I know of that has interchangable tips. Good luck and take care.
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  #11  
Old 2011-04-15, 5:49pm
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Kurt, I looked at similar markets. Torches seemed so expensive for what they are. Now that I see the construction details of some of these things, there's no way I'd want to be in the business. Too much work for too little profit in a crowded market. Even if you made a nozzle for next to nothing (IMO, near impossible) by the time you paid your liability insurance, if you could get any, it wouldn't look so appealing. I'm a way neophyte on the artistic half of the matter, but I suspect there are some subtle details of how the burner functions that artistic glass workers find very important, otherwise there wouldn't be a dozen makers with more than 50 models of torch on the market, with strong opinions in the forums about which is best.
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Old 2011-04-30, 10:37pm
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