Is this a good deal to buy??? HELP!!

TabathaD · #1 2011-02-26, 10:14pm

Hello everyone! I am new to lampworking. I am currently looking for the "to good to pass up deal" to get me started. So here is what I have found for sale. I was looking ofr advice as to what it is worth and what I should offer to pay for it. They want $650.00. Here is what they are selling....

*1 Nortel Major Torch (2 torches in 1!)Purchased brand new. It has very, very few usage hours.

*1 5 ft. Oxygen Tank (1/4 full)

*1 Propane Tank (1/2 full)

*Brand new gauges

*2 15-20ft. Air Hoses

*1 Jen-Ken Table Kiln (temp reader is broken, but works perfect at setting 9)- GS Fuse kiln. It was purchased second hand. I will throw in a 70$ internal thermometer that I never installed

*1 Glass Bead tutorial DVD

*Extra Glass tubes, color rods & tools laying around.

So what do ya'll think?

bead crazy · #2 2011-02-26, 10:17pm

I would guess any where between $750 would be a great deal and $900-1000 would still be OK depending on the glass or tools

DesertDreamer · #3 2011-02-26, 10:28pm

1. Ask what kind of glass they're selling. "Tubes" sounds to me like it might be boro. If that's what you want to get started on, cool, but you should know what you're getting because it will affect how you work it and anneal it.

2. A Nortel Major is a fairly large/hot torch. Great for boro, but if you're interested in soft glass, it might be too much of a good thing to get started. OTOH, the center fire (separately controlled) is the same as having a Minor, so it's all good. It's just important to be aware of what you might be getting into.

3. Assuming the oxygen tank is owned by the seller, do you have a local welding shop that can supply/swap/fill tanks on an ownership basis? (Some want ownership, others want rental-only.) Also, how old is the tank and when was it last tested. It's something else that some suppliers are more fussy than others about.

4. I agree with Lori. $750 would be quite a bargain, $1000 would still be fair.

squid · #4 2011-02-26, 10:32pm

I would offer $500 at the most - I am always skeptical of the "hey, it doesn't look like it works, but it does" thing like the kiln.

DesertDreamer · #5 2011-02-26, 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid

I would offer $500 at the most - I am always skeptical of the "hey, it doesn't look like it works, but it does" thing like the kiln.

She has a point there! OTOH, it's not hard to bypass an infinite switch to install a digital controller, but the controller will be $$$.

TabathaD · #6 2011-02-26, 10:48pm

OMG! You guys are quick with your responses. Thank you so much. This is so overwhelming and it really helps to get good solid advice from people who know what they are talking about! I originally was just going to use a hot head torch and take my beads to a local bead store to have them annealed. Now Ive gone in a completely different direction. I hadnt even thought about the tanks. Now I guess I need to figure that out too. Wow I never thought making a little tiny bead would be this hard or expensive. LOL.

DesertDreamer · #7 2011-02-26, 10:55pm

One more thing to add, though it's kind of a big thing...where will you work? With a torch like a Major, and if you're going to do boro (which requires a more substantial flame) you absolutely need good ventilation. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, and well worth a visit to the Safety forum a few rooms down. And, whatever flavor of glass you decide to use, good safety/filtered glasses.

Having the kiln is a big perk. You're pretty limited by the size of bead you can make if you're batch annealing. Being able to have a kiln right by your side gives you a lot more options about how you're going to work.

SilverReflections · #8 2011-02-26, 10:58pm

It's definitely not a cheap hobby lol. If you get a really good deal it could be worth it, but I had an O2 tank for about a week ... It was my father in laws so I had to bring it to the gas place to drop it off, wait a few days to get it filled and then go get it and lug it back to it's place on the wall. All for like 4-5 days worth of torching (I was new so maybe I didn't have things adjusted well). Anyway, at $30 a pop I quickly figured out that O2 concentrators would be the way to go for what I wanted to do. Just something to think about... It's only a good deal if you are actually going to use it all but best of luck to you. Glass is a great addiction to have!

Tina

TabathaD · #9 2011-02-27, 7:20am

In my glass class I took I used a Minor. That being said if I could find one of those used at a good deal then what else would you guys suggest that I buy to get set up? How much would it cost? I would need a kiln and I dont know what kind would be the the best one for the $$$. Since I wont be making alot of beads each week it doesnt have to be that big. As far as the ventalation my husband is cutting out the wall in our garage and installing a vent that will suck the air straight outside. When I first found this equipment I was thinking this was perfect. Now Im not so sure. UGGHHHHH.

Would my best bet be to get a hot head???

carolinesbeads · #10 2011-02-27, 9:06am

I have been struggling with the same questions you are. Based on spending 750-1000 to get started I would consider getting a new kiln The glass hive makes "the short guy" some that are around 600 for a small kiln that would work for getting started(its the one I am saving for). He has a really good reputation. If you are working in 104 then spend the rest of your money on a HH and bulk propane. Please be aware that the propane needs to be OUTSIDE the garage and piped in through the wall. There is a good thread on how to do that in the free tutorial section. THis way all of your equipment is new, it is not recommended to use used hoses. Just an FYI you can do almost anything on a HH but it is slower. The one thing that doesn't work well is striking glasses IMHO, so I just choose not to work with Raku or any of the other striking glasses.

echeveria · #11 2011-02-27, 9:19am

If you just want to make a few beads a week, I would be tempted to start with a kiln like the Glass Hive Short Guy or a Chili Pepper and the Hot Head on bulk propane. That way, you can move up to bigger torches if you want to make bigger or more complex beads.

The main reason I quickly moved away from the Hot Head was the noise. I got a Bobcat, and love it. You can also get reasonably priced Minor burners, Crickets, Mini CC's, etc.

I do think that setup sounds like overkill for making small beads, and the kiln does not sound great.

TabathaD · #12 2011-02-27, 9:34am

If I only have to pay $650.00 is it worth it??????

houptdavid · #13 2011-02-27, 11:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meklo1029

Hello everyone! I am new to lampworking. I am currently looking for the "to good to pass up deal" to get me started. So here is what I have found for sale. I was looking ofr advice as to what it is worth and what I should offer to pay for it. They want $650.00. Here is what they are selling....

*1 Nortel Major Torch (2 torches in 1!)Purchased brand new. It has very, very few usage hours. 390. new

*1 5 ft. Oxygen Tank (1/4 full) Make sure they own it!

*1 Propane Tank (1/2 full) 30.new

*Brand new gauges set 150.new

*2 15-20ft. Air Hoses 25.new

*1 Jen-Ken Table Kiln (temp reader is broken, but works perfect at setting 9)- GS Fuse kiln. It was purchased second hand. I will throw in a 70$ internal thermometer that I never installed 365. up new depending on model + 50, for the pyrometer

*1 Glass Bead tutorial DVD $12-35.

*Extra Glass tubes, color rods & tools laying around. Does sound like boro

So what do ya'll think?

See what kiln, if it is a top load (Batch anneal) or has a bead door. The GS is not Digitaly controlled (see your other post).
It isn't going to hurt to look Depending on how much glass and hand tools there are.

TabathaD · #14 2011-02-27, 4:05pm

Thanks eveyone for you help. I passed on the deal. After considering all the comments everyone had given me I was just to unsure about the whole deal. Really the torch was going to be way bigger then anything I would ever need and the kiln was questionable if it would work or not. Plus the people I was buying it from didnt know if the tanks were owned or not (as it was there sons who had moved away). Then if you shouldnt use old hoses I would need to replace them too. The torch hadnt been used I guess in 3 years, so I am back at the drawing board to try and find a torch and kiln first and everything else along the way. Thanks for your help.

Pia Kaven · #15 2011-02-27, 4:31pm

I think you probably did a right decision. If you are just starting, and was happy with the soft glass in your class, that is great way to start, most people stay in soft glass forever... some try boro, some go totally to the dark side after while. There are few people who do both. But several people are way happy with soft glass, and Minor or Cricket torch would be great for that. You can also get oxygen concentrator for $150 and wont need any oxygen refills. You can get a propane tank for pretty much nothing if you take it from your grill

And all you need is hoses, propane regulator, and flashback arrestors, and you are good to go. If you dont want to batch anneal, you can get used kiln like chili pepper. You could spend about $400 to $500 dollars on everything else (excluding the kiln) and that would be all brand new items. You only need minimal tools, tweezers and paddle go far, some mandrels and bead release, and ofcourse some glass, I would maybe get first rod sampler, so you would have several colors to try.
Very cheap way is to get the hot head torch, and that way you could buy new kiln (browse around to find the best deal, used ones are usually great choice).
And be active on forum, you will get great info here! People are very helpful and generous sharing information.
Welcome to the addiction!

Silver Moon Lampwork · #16 2011-02-27, 5:28pm

Flashback arrestors? Are those needed with a surface mix torch and a concentrator? I had been told I didn't need them when I bought my setup. I've been working without one for over 6 years and haven't blown myself up yet. Am I just lucky?

TabathaD · #17 2011-02-27, 5:39pm

Pia-
Thank you so much for the helpful information. I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction as to where to find the oxygen concentrator for $150.00? I think that would be a great investment. I really think I will be using just soft glass. Except for my obession with "hot pink" which I have heard is nearly impossible to make combining colors. I was also thinking a cricket or a minor torch would be perfect for me. Can you tell what I am not able to make with either of those torches? Also I have found kiln for $308.00 Jen-Ken Kilns GS Fuse Box 6"x6"x4.5". Would that work? Since I am so new I really have lots of questions.

SilverRiverJewelry · #18 2011-02-27, 7:16pm

Check on your local craigs list under medical supplies for the concentrator. I started on a hot head and have since moved up to a cricket. I had the hot head with bulk propane for over a year, its a good, inexpensive way to get started. I moved up to a cricket because I wanted to use boro also and melting boro on a hot head is kind of like watching grass grow in drought. I have the short guy from the glass hive and its an absolutely great kiln. Eventually, I will have to get the next size up (I am much quicker at making beads now and can fill the short guy pretty full, but I only have a day or two a week to make beads so for now, its plenty. And Mike is awesome, and is willing to do lay away.

Good luck and welcome to the addiction!

squid · #19 2011-02-27, 7:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meklo1029

Pia-
Thank you so much for the helpful information. I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction as to where to find the oxygen concentrator for $150.00? I think that would be a great investment. I really think I will be using just soft glass. Except for my obession with "hot pink" which I have heard is nearly impossible to make combining colors. I was also thinking a cricket or a minor torch would be perfect for me. Can you tell what I am not able to make with either of those torches? Also I have found kiln for $308.00 Jen-Ken Kilns GS Fuse Box 6"x6"x4.5". Would that work? Since I am so new I really have lots of questions.

I think Hobbies4us has them pretty cheap - and there is a thread here on LE from a vendor selling them for $150.

Found it - here:

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175472

Pia Kaven · #20 2011-02-27, 8:25pm

I think Unlimitedoxygen.com has them on sale... if not right now, they have it almost all the time, so keep an eye on their website.
And about the flashback arrestors, I would defenitely have them for any kind of dual fuel torch, it wont blow up your concentrator, but if your on any tank, Id rather not take the risk. It can flash back to your hoses on any kind of torch... unless I am totally wrong.
And when you buy your set, remember to buy didium glasses too!
About the kiln... I am not familiar with that model myself, sorry, someone else would know probably better. I have the mailbox model, that works great for me! (they could be the same ones, just dont recognize the model #)
Hope this helps ya!

Pia Kaven · #21 2011-02-27, 9:11pm

I did take a look of that kiln online,and it looks like a great kiln, but it does not have a flip door, that would accomodate beads with their mandrels, and with such a small cavity, you wouldnt be able to put the mandrels in either, so I would say skip that. You will be much happier if you have a bead door.

Pia Kaven · #22 2011-02-27, 9:19pm

http://compare.ebay.com/like/3503451...=263602_309572

This is what I have. And it has been working ok for me, but if you want a kiln that will last a loooong time and you would be happy with it without needing to upgrade it, get a glass hive kiln http://theglasshive.com/BEADANNEALERS.html the short guy is a wonderful kiln... like any other of their kilns, but often it is enough. Especially if you make just beads.

I am going to get one of theirs too... heard nothing but good about them!

TabathaD · #23 2011-02-27, 10:43pm

Wow! They are nice kilns but they also have a nice price tag too. I forgot all about the door and needing it for the mandrel. But I know in our class we left our beads on the mandrels and then put them in the fiber blanket and then took them off the madrels and put them in the kiln that way. Im guessing it is easier to leave them on the madrel. Plus some of mine broke trying to get them off the mandrel. LOL!
If I were to use a nortel minor or a gttcricket torch would I need a 5 or 10 lpm oxygen concentrator? And what about using a AIRSEP CORPORATION Newlife Oxygen Concentrator?

Pia Kaven · #24 2011-02-28, 12:14am

for Cricket 5 lpm is plenty, Minor will run fine with it too, not as optimal though as Cricket. 10 will be even better, plus if you decide to go bigger with the torch, you might not have to upgrade your concentrator. What you want to look for in a concentrator is the lpm, otherwise it doesnt matter where it is from. Buy from who you are comfortable with, read some feedback on the suppliers, some have stellar customer service and some dont. It is all up to you. I have only bought one concentrator ever, and bought it privately, so I cant say one or the other way. You can always batch anneal, but you might find out much more beads breaking up, so in the end it might be a deal breaker anyhow. And yes, new kilns are pricey, so thats why I would look for the used one.

loco · #25 2011-02-28, 12:28am

Get a Cricket. It will work better on one concentrator than a minor.

Get the Glass Hive kiln it's 595.00 including shipping and is made of BRICK . The chili pecker is 581.00 including shipping and is made of FIBER. That's 14.00 more for a MUCH better kiln, and their customer service is the best in the industry! Try reaching Jen-Ken after hours or on the weekend, it WON'T happen! With the Glass Hive it WILL! Well worth ten times the 14.00 in my not so humble opinion!

Pia Kaven · #26 2011-02-28, 2:49am

Exactly why I am upgrading to Glass Hive! Tired of fuzz on my beads! And on my bench top!