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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2005-06-11, 1:09pm
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Princess of Pi
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 681
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natural gas vs. propane
Does anyone use natural gas in their studio? We're remodeling our house and I'm not sure whether I should pipe in natural gas to the studio or not. I've heard that there are torches that don't work well with natural gas - I think the Lynx was one, and I might want to upgrade to a Lynx later. It seems every source says something different. (One I've checked is Bandhu Dunham's lampworking book.)
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Without fire, there is no passion.
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2005-06-11, 2:01pm
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Procrastinate Now!!
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 1,793
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Hi Barclay ~
I can't wait to see the responses you get on this one! I'm still on a hot head and have been curious about this topic.
Denise
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2005-06-11, 3:09pm
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Safety ALWAYS
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
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The only "for sure" torches that will work without "modifications" are the Nortel torches: Minor, Midrange, Midrange plus.
The smaller GTT torches (Bobcat, Lynx) will work, but will not be a full capability.
Most torches, in order to use natural gas, will require higher than normal pressure. Household pressure is about 1/3 PSI, to run a torch, you are typically going to need between 2 and 5 PSI. 5 PSI is usually the maximum that your gas company is going to run into your house.
There are a couple of ways to do this:
1. Purchase a gas booster. These are not cheap, they run about $1000.
2. Have the natural gas company tee off the main line (before the house regulator), add a regulator at higher pressure, and run a line to the studio.
3. Have the gas company raise the pressure on the main line, and put low(er) pressure regulators on the other household appliances that use natural gas.
Generally speaking, a gas-certified plumber can do the majority of the work, but the gas company will usually prefer to do the line regulation themselves.
Building permit requirements will vary from city to city, contact your local building inspector to find out if one will be required.
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2005-06-11, 11:44pm
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Princess of Pi
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 681
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Thanks, Mike.
Do you think it's safer to run natural gas lines than to use propane (given that the propane tank would be outside the house)?
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Without fire, there is no passion.
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2005-06-12, 9:30am
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Safety ALWAYS
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
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Natural gas is a "safer" gas, because it is lighter than air. The drawback is that it is somewhat cooler than propane, by a couple of hundred degrees.
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2005-06-12, 1:47pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 135
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I run Natural Gas + an OxyCon on a minor. I LOVE IT! I think it burns much cleaner and I am so less prone to soot that I forget and have problems when I take a class w/ propane.
I read an article in Glass Line magazine that said both run at similar temperatures. I think it is their archive section if you want to look it up. ( www.hotglass.com)
The best parts - I haven't noticed any cost difference on my gas bill! No cylinders to deal with outside, rubino strikes easily and doesn't go white...
I could go on and on.
Joyce
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Carlisle Mini-CC/15 LPM OxyCon/Natural Gas - 2005
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2005-06-12, 5:45pm
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MomOnAMission
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: North Dallas
Posts: 1,925
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I run my Bobcat on it. It's definately cooler, but MUCH cleaner!! I just purchased a 2nd oxycon & the y-connector arrived on Friday. Everything is all hooked up, but haven't had the time to try it out yet. I will let you know if it "heats" things up a bit
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2005-06-12, 6:59pm
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Crispy Critter
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 3,300
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I run my Minor on NG and an oxycon. Didn't need to boost the NG, as it was already coming into the house at 2 1/4. It is a little cooler than propane, but I don't see a huge difference. I love my set up and LOVE not having to deal with tanks!
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2013-09-28, 12:08pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Dec 29, 2012
Posts: 1
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I just wanted to add that I LOVE my new setup. I just bought a Bethlehem Alpha torch and set it up using natural gas and an oxygen concentrator (5lpm) from respa king, who is local to me. It's perfect! I can't believe I stayed with my hothead for 7 years! I use only soft glass, but I can get an extremely hot flame. I'm addicted all over again.
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2013-09-28, 12:43pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 11, 2011
Posts: 152
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Natural gas has less hydrocarbon than propane so less heat but also requires less O2 for complete combustion which makes life easier with a concentrator. Also burns cleaner as stated and you'll need a booster as was mentioned.
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2013-09-28, 1:53pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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An oxygen NG flame burns at 2770 C while propane oxygen is at 2820 C which is not a significant difference.
The major difference is the amount of BTUs generated for a given volume of fuel. However, even with that consideration the cost of an equal number of BTUs can range from 6 to 10 times less costly for NG vs propane.
A NG booster is nice to have but not necessary. There are a number of torches that are designed for low pressure levels (1/3 PSI) of NG. The down side is cost. The upside of a NG booster is that it can make use of the full capacity of the torch as pressures up to 25 PSI of NG are available.
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2013-10-05, 5:06pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 01, 2005
Posts: 2,159
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The Bethlehem Betta will also run on NG very well for soft glass. Not so great for boro. Many smaller torches will run on NG w/o a booster but if you are planning too go big you'll need either a booster or propane and tanked/LOX.
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Robert Simmons
(Former) Director for Bead Donations
Beads of Courage, Inc.
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2013-10-05, 7:34pm
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Melody of Glass
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Join Date: Apr 08, 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,511
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The Lucio is designed for low pressure NG and oxygen. Huge difference from my mega minor. It is way hotter. I love NG for the convenience.
In terms if safety, you don't want either leaking in your studio. I tend to think the hard plumbed lines are safer than a tank but that is not backed up by any facts - just my opinion.
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2013-10-09, 6:02am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Sep 19, 2013
Posts: 18
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Can anyone recommend a booster that gets a Lynx to full power? I was thinking I'd need something like the G-tec T-30 or T-60 (ouch, says the wallet)
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2013-10-09, 12:28pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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The Gas Tec sites provides some recommendations for various touches vs booster size. If not listed then contact the torch manufacture for specifics.
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2013-10-11, 5:21am
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old fart
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Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
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do not get a gas tec system, waste of money....simply buy a nortel or national torch as they will run off normal household pressure NG....save your money for something else.. your primary limitation in the heating power of a torch ALWAYS is your oxygen supply, not your gas supply!!!!!
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Mark Wilson
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2013-10-11, 8:34pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: 618
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My setup is NG with tanked OXY and I love it. Run a Minor and a Cricket on just the normal pressure coming in.
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2013-10-20, 11:52pm
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Mad about Glass
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Join Date: Nov 29, 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,052
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My Scorpion runs just fine on natural gas and 8lpm 20psi oxycon.
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Jenn
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2014-08-12, 7:15pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Nov 23, 2012
Posts: 2
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Wow this has been super helpful! I don't see any postings stating anybody didn't like NG. My biggest concern was the lower heat. I'm using a Nortel Minor now with propane. Going to NG with my Nortel won't drop the heat too much I hope. The Nortel on NG will still be a lot hotter than a hothead on chemtane, right??? If down the road I decide to go with a Scorpion would NG still be OK?
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2014-08-13, 5:45am
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hyperT
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Join Date: Jan 31, 2013
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 582
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I've used natural gas before, but it runs to cold for my liking. As a result you have to work much slower, probably more like your hot head. I don't worry about the propane I go through a lot less of it than oxy. One bbq tank will last me at least 2 K bottles of ox.
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2014-08-13, 6:51am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Nov 23, 2012
Posts: 2
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Could it have to do with the type of torch you were using and the pressure of your Oxygen?What type of torch were you using with the NG? I've been using two Oxygen concentrators with propane on a Nortel Minor for the last year. I live at 9200 altitude which I'm sure has an effect on the performance of my equipment. I have natural gas in my home and wanted to simplify my setup. If going to NG would cause my Nortel to work as cool as a hothead, forget it
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2014-08-13, 1:23pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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Some torches work well with household low pressure NG and others do not. Have been using a GTT Scorpion with NG and have no issue with making one inch diameter boro marbles.
Using three concentrators at 9 psi with each set at 4 lpm. i.e. these are 5 lpm machines. With NG at 5 psi.
In many locations, household NG is in the 1/4 to 1/3 psi range which limits the amount of fuel available to the torch. Check the data printed on the outside regulator. Most likely in the 6.5 - 7.5 WC range. (.234 - .271 psi)
It is best to test your torch on NG to see if it will perform up to your standards and needs prior to a final installation.
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2014-08-13, 2:36pm
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Melody of Glass
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Join Date: Apr 08, 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,511
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I have a Carlisle Lucio and it is made for low pressure gasses. I had a Mega Minor and it was also fine on NG and oxycon. I definitely notice a difference when I work on propane in class, though. It's much faster. Depends on what you are used to and what you can get used to. The convenience of NG and oxycon is worth it for me but I'm also not pumping out production work where cutting seconds off beads makes a difference on income.
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2014-11-01, 2:59pm
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Co-owner
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Join Date: Jun 22, 2009
Location: South Jordan Utah
Posts: 313
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We only run Natural Gas in our studio. It is so much more convenient, less expensive and cleaner. We never have to clean our Carlisle torches with NG. We are a Carlisle distributor and the Lucio works equally well on propane or NG. Remember, propane produces a hotter flame so you will need to make adjustments.
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PHONE: (385) 237-3365
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2014-11-01, 5:47pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 27, 2014
Location: Walla Walla, Washington
Posts: 289
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I tapped my NG line and can run small stuff but my propane has a lot more fire, I run the natural gas full blast wide open on a GTT bobcat.
The great part is if I run out of propane I can still run the torch, just a quick hose swap.
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2014-11-02, 10:19am
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Co-owner
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Join Date: Jun 22, 2009
Location: South Jordan Utah
Posts: 313
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If you tapped your NG flame after the regulator is is probably running Too low of pressure to fully supply yourtorch
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PHONE: (385) 237-3365
OXYGEN 24 HOUR TEXT LINE: (801) 949-0575
LAMPWORKING 24 HOUR TEXT LINE: (801) 949-0576
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