Help--tiny torch flame

Magicfire · #1 2015-03-28, 8:28am

I've been struggling with this for a while.

I thought it was just that my torch (a Lynx) was clogged. So I bought a minor from Ron to use as a backup while my torch is being cleaned.

Well, I do think the Lynx has some clogging (probably from working with a small torch flame), but the issues I am having I am also having with the minor (I finally got it hooked up a couple of days ago).

Instead of a normal flame, I have a very thin, blue flame, like you would use for detail work. There is hardly any flare at all; I can hardly see the flame, actually.

I can turn up the propane all I want, but if I turn up the oxy just a tiny bit too much it blows the flame out.

I am using a 10-LPM concentrator that I bought about a year ago. Could it be the concentrator? It sounds fine...does the normal oxycon things. It seems like there is plenty of air coming out.

I have my propane set to 5 LPM. Increasing the propane to 7 or 8 LPM didn't seem to help any.

I just checked because I realized that it has been a while since I looked at what LPM I have the oxycon set at. I think I had it at around 8; I increased it to 10 and it does seem like the flame was a little bigger before I increased the oxy too much and blew the flame out.

I really should be able to get a bigger flame than that.

I can only make small beads.

I have been torching for 14 years and have never had a problem like this before. I used the Lynx for 13 of those years and I've made plenty of big beads.

It's driving me up a wall, and making it hard for me to make enough beads to pay the bills!!

Could it be the oxygen purity? Or the propane regulator?

Thanks!!

Magicfire · #2 2015-03-28, 8:35am

BTW, the concentrator was a "scratch and dent" model. It appears to work well. How can I check the oxygen purity?

And I had been using it for 2-3 months before I noticed a problem with the flame. I think I first noticed it about 6 months ago. It's gotten gradually worse.

Magicfire · #3 2015-03-28, 9:25am

Maybe I should just rent an oxygen tank for a while? I'm so tired of dealing with this.

echeveria · #4 2015-03-28, 10:18am

It sounds like your propane regulator to me, but I am no expert. Seems like if it was your oxygen you would have a bushy flame rather than a tight one.

You should not run your concentrator at 10. I think 6-8 is as high as you should go, from what I have read.

Hope you get it resolved! Is there a welding shop that can help you test your regulator?

Magicfire · #5 2015-03-28, 11:59am

Yes, I was on the phone with the welding shop earlier, asking about tanked oxy.

I have heard that regulators can wear out, and I've had this one for 14 years. But what does it do when it wears out?

I can turn up the propane, but when I turn up the oxy too much the flame blows out. I just can't quite get my head around why it would do that.

Thanks!

echeveria · #6 2015-03-28, 12:26pm

The regulator may no longer be controlling the pressure properly.

Adding: I would have them check it. It would be doubly frustrating to buy and haul home tanked oxy only to find that you still have the problem.

Speedslug · #7 2015-03-28, 1:11pm

How long of a flame can you get with just the propane?

Seems to me if there was a purity issue with an oxycon you would be getting alarms so I am inclined to look at the fuel side of this symptom.

I have to ask if the hose you are using is also some 14 years old as well.
Hoses don't last for ever and if it is not a grade "T" type then you are going have the hose self destructing from chemical action with the propane.

Maybe take your fuel regulator and hoses in to the welding shop and see if the problem can be isolated with their equipment to swap out one thing at a time.

Do let us know what you find out.

KJohn · #8 2015-03-28, 4:54pm

I would look at the regulator too. If there is low propane and high oxy I get that kind of flame, but if there is not enough propane for the mix it might go out if you increase the oxygen.

14 years is a long time, I would change it out anyway and see if that works.

Eileen · #9 2015-03-28, 5:22pm

Sounds like propane to me too. Maybe your hoses have a clog if it isn't the regulator?

LarryC · #10 2015-03-28, 7:05pm

Seems like your concentrator is not working. Flame is being blown out by the air not oxy.

snoopdog6502 · #11 2015-03-28, 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

Seems like your concentrator is not working. Flame is being blown out by the air not oxy.

I agree. air will just blow the flame out.

On my oxycon inside on the circuit-board that holds the power switch there is a tiny yellow hose that plugs onto an oxygen purity sensor, it came off and I was getting a runt flame that would blow my torch out.

I put the hose back on and it works like a champ.

pepep · #12 2015-03-29, 12:40am

I would agree with the oxy con diagnosis. It sounds like you use your oxygen vavle on your torch only partially open? That's not good at all to do to concentrators. The oxygen should almost always be completely open unless you have a pressure relief valve to relieve that pressure. This can damage the unit.

Magicfire · #13 2015-03-29, 7:44am

Yes, I was on the phone with the welding shop earlier, asking about tanked oxy.

I have heard that regulators can wear out, and I've had this one for 14 years. But what does it do when it wears out?

I can turn up the propane, but when I turn up the oxy too much the flame blows out. I just can't quite get my head around why it would do that.

Thanks!

echeveria · #14 2015-03-29, 8:54am

What does your propane flame look like before you turn on the oxy knob?

Magicfire · #15 2015-03-29, 9:26am

It looks pretty normal, Kathy.

However, the more I ponder it, the more I think it is the propane regulator. It IS really old, after all. Also, even when the flame looks neutral my beads are still getting reduced a bit. It's great for silver glass, (I got some amazing colors out of Clio last night! lol) but not so great for everything else!

I noticed something weird this morning. I shut the propane off last night and drained the hose like always, so the pressure in the hose should be at zero. But this morning it shows pressure again in the propane hose. The propane is still closed at the tank, so what the heck?

I think that proves that the regulator is shot. And it seems kind of dangerous to me, too, so I'm not torching again until I have the new regulator.

And, a new regulator is $80, versus several hundred $ for a new concentrator. I'm going to try a new regulator and hoses first and see what happens.

Thank you so much everyone!

Magicfire · #16 2015-03-29, 9:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoopdog6502

I agree. air will just blow the flame out.

On my oxycon inside on the circuit-board that holds the power switch there is a tiny yellow hose that plugs onto an oxygen purity sensor, it came off and I was getting a runt flame that would blow my torch out.

I put the hose back on and it works like a champ.

I'll keep that in mind, in case replacing the regulator doesn't help! Thank you!

Speedslug · #17 2015-03-29, 9:34am

If you had shut off the propane tank then there should not be anything for the regulator to show a pressure with.
That symptom of the regulator showing pressure after shutting off the propane tank tells me the shut off valve on the propane tank is leaking unless the regulator shows there is pressure even if the propane is shut and the torch is open but there is nothing coming out.

Got a spare tank to hook it all to?

I will add here so that I don't forget to mention it later that oxygen tanks (if / when you get one) want to have their valves all the way open or all the way closed. Seems the valves leak by the stem unless it is opened all the way to the fully open end or fully closed positions.

Magicfire · #18 2015-03-29, 9:53am

Hmmm. I hope it's not the tank itself that's leaking. What a disturbing thought.

I do have another tank, but I had problems with dirty propane and stopped using it. At least that's what I thought the problem was. That's around when all this stuff started. But I got a new tank with fresh propane and it seemed normal for a while.

So the propane tank I am using is one I bought, and it's less than 6 months old.

At this point I'm just waiting for more beads to sell so I can go get that regulator.

Thank you Phill!

Magicfire · #19 2015-03-29, 9:55am

Oh, and I'm trying not to have to buy or rent an oxygen tank. They don't deliver out here, and I don't think I can lift the size of tank that I would need. Plus the cheapest one they had (20 lb. or gallon or whatever) is $120 and I would need an oxy regulator, too. So if it turns out that the oxycon is the problem, I'll just have to pay to get it fixed.

I'll keep that in mind, though, if I ever get one!

"I will add here so that I don't forget to mention it later that oxygen tanks (if / when you get one) want to have their valves all the way open or all the way closed. Seems the valves leak by the stem unless it is opened all the way to the fully open end or fully closed positions."

echeveria · #20 2015-03-29, 10:02am

Lots of puzzle pieces to trouble shoot! Good luck, and I do think it is wise to work from the cheapest up.

Can you borrow a regulator from someone before you buy one?

LarryC · #21 2015-03-29, 4:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magicfire

Hmmm. I hope it's not the tank itself that's leaking. What a disturbing thought.

I do have another tank, but I had problems with dirty propane and stopped using it. At least that's what I thought the problem was. That's around when all this stuff started. But I got a new tank with fresh propane and it seemed normal for a while.

So the propane tank I am using is one I bought, and it's less than 6 months old.

At this point I'm just waiting for more beads to sell so I can go get that regulator.

Thank you Phill!

The valve on the propane tank is probably a bit leaky. My rented tank does this.

Magicfire · #22 2015-04-04, 6:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by echeveria

Lots of puzzle pieces to trouble shoot! Good luck, and I do think it is wise to work from the cheapest up.

Can you borrow a regulator from someone before you buy one?

No, there aren't very many lampworkers here...I only know one, and she is quite a ways away.

So, would you believe that I could only find ONE of them in the whole town?? And it was $150, about twice what I would pay for it online.

So, I ordered one from Sundance. Paid a little extra to get it faster. They shipped it promptly, and it was supposed to arrive on Friday. It is now in limbo-land somewhere between Sacramento and Billings.

I called USPS customer service and they were no help at all.

I think I'm stuck in one of the circles of hell, as far as this whole torch thing goes!

I could use some positive propane regulator-arrival thoughts! Thanks!

Magicfire · #23 2015-04-04, 6:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

The valve on the propane tank is probably a bit leaky. My rented tank does this.

Good to know. It is a pretty new tank, so I was surprised. So far it hasn't really been a problem.

LarryC · #24 2015-04-04, 10:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magicfire

Good to know. It is a pretty new tank, so I was surprised. So far it hasn't really been a problem.

Shouldnt be.

Magicfire · #25 2015-04-12, 8:30am

Well, I tried the new regulator and it didn't help at all. So the problem must be the concentrator. I'm going to call a local oxy company and see if they will help me. If that doesn't work out, I may have to rent an oxygen tank for a while.

I'm sure I could send it back to Extreme Oxygen, but I don't have the box anymore. Plus I would have to pay shipping, and then it would probably take a while. But maybe I should call EO to see what he says.

Magicfire · #26 2015-04-12, 9:04am

I also placed an ad on Craig's List to see if anyone has an old concentrator that they aren't using. You never know, I might get lucky!

KJohn · #27 2015-04-12, 5:29pm

Yes I would call them too, they might have some idea what the problem is. They sell parts too, IRC. Best of luck in getting that sorted.

snoopdog6502 · #28 2015-04-12, 8:19pm

Seriously, open up the oxycon and look for a wire or hose that came loose on the circuit board. They clunk hard when you shut them off and that will knock stuff loose.

It may be more damaging to ship it then to have you fix it yourself.

LarryC · #29 2015-04-12, 9:21pm

Sorry. Made no sense at all to blame the regulator. The oxycon purity is way down or just moving air. That will blow out the flame.

snoopdog6502 · #30 2015-04-13, 12:49pm

When My oxycon was acting like yours is was a 5 minute fix with nothing more then a screwdriver.

Oxycons are build fairly simple so they are reliable, peoples lives are at stake when used for medical.

The yellow hose came off the oxygen purity sensor. Have a look inside yours. The hose went on the little titty about 1/4" to the right of the hose end and it ran perfect after that.