I'm Buying a Dual Fuel

[tabrown99]

Hello,

I need a little guidance, reccomendations, product knowledge or whatever you would like to call it.

I have been using a HH for about 2 months and I am ready to move on to a dual fuel. I here and read about all of these brands and shapes but I could I have know idea which is good, bad, or indifferent. Here are the parameters I would like to use in selecting a torch and if any of you can tell me what you know, I would appreciate it.

Price $150 to $250

I want to make small, med, and large soft glass beads

Would like to try some boro if possible

I will use propane / oxygen, maybe NG but not sure at this point

I would like to stay away from a "gas hog" so if there is one that conserves on fuel that would be great


Any other suggestions, comments, or knowledge would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Todd

[pathfinder19]

Good thread...I'm in the same boat and have been looking at a GTT Bobcat......Sent them an email for information, we'll see what happens....

[Mike Glass]

Hi Todd,
I'm pretty new to this also and I'm no expert, but I'll tell you want I did.

I looked at all the high priced torches and I'm sure they have there merits, but I went with a National 8M. EBay for $100 used and it's great.

I use it for soft glass and boro glass. The best part about the 8M is that you can change tips and switch it from pre mix to surface mix with a $40 adapter
which I got for $25 on ebay. I pick-up a set of new regs on ebay for $100 and got a T grade hose set local for $30.

A BBQ propane tank lasts about 3 weeks and a 244 cubic O2 tank gives me 25to 30 hours of torch time and only cost $33 to refill.

I'm very happy with it so far,
Mike

[Wendyki]

I use a mega minor by nortel I got on sale for 200.00 My first set of regulators was a cheap setup off ebay sold in a package set sup and then switched to better ones later. If you have the money get the better reg's first.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by tabrown99

Hello,



I have been using a HH for about 2 months and I am ready to move on to a dual fuel.

I will use propane / oxygen, maybe NG but not sure at this point

Any other suggestions, comments, or knowledge would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Todd

First and this is not being critical, but it's NOT "dual fuel" there is no such animal as a dual fuel torch in lampworking.....

Its a fuel/oxygen torch..... Fuel can be most anything, NG, Propane, butane, hydrogen (but not likely)... The other component of combustion is a oxidizer or "oxygen"...... Actually even a hot head is a fuel/oxidizer torch using air as a oxidizer...

So technically the torch you want to move up to is a "fuel/oxidizer torch", or more commonly referred to as a "fuel/oxygen" torch....

Dale

[tabrown99]

I appreciate the information. Can you make any recommendations regarding an "oxy fuel" torch or some of the main MFRS out there where I can compare them, thanks.

Todd

[Mike Glass]

Here's a link that compares the 8M to the minor. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for the comparison.

http://www.sundanceglass.com/national8mtr.html

[ArtcoInc]

Here is a basic list of new torches in this category (in no particular order):

Nortel Minor Burner
Nortel Mega Minor
Carlisle Mini CC
Knight Little Dragon 7
GTT Bobcat
National 8M
Bethlehem SS Minow

(and I'm sure I've forgotten some)

If you are willing to go used, you may stumble upon some good deals on some larger torches out there.

You are aware that when you upgrade from your Hothead, you will need to get hoses, a fuel source (Natural gas or Propane), an oxygen source (either bottles or a concentrator), and probably regulator(s). These alone can cost you $200-1000, depending.

Malcolm

[glasshouse]

I have a Minor and a National 8m with the SM21 tip. I liked the Minor, but outgrew it in less than a year. I wanted a bigger flame as my beads got bigger and I wanted to work faster. I love the National, it's a nice big flame for not a lot of money. I also have the small tip for it but never use it.

That being said, everyone has a favorite and it seems to be a personal preference and style of working. I personally don't like the smaller GTT torches because they have very forceful flames without a lot of radiant heat. I find for what I do, the softer bushier flames are what I prefer. But lots of people really like the GTT torches and make stunningly beautiful beads on them.

Kelly

[kbinkster]

The GTT flames are only forceful if dialed in that way. You can definitely get soft bushy flames from them, and good radiant heat, as well. The radiant heat is around the flame - where it belongs. Since the GTTs have internal cooling and the torch bodies stay cool to the touch, it may not seem like there's a lot of radiant heat because your hands are not getting toasted.

Todd mentioned that he would like something that was not a "gas hog." The National 8M uses quite a bit of oxygen, even with just the SM7 tip. The Mini CC also uses quite a bit more than other 7 jet torches like the Minor and Bobcat.

[tabrown99]

I appreciate all of the input. kbinkster or anyone in the know, I have been looking at the GTT Bobcat. Would anyone consider it to be a gas hog or does that really have more to do with how you have the torch dialed in.

[pam]

Todd, I think before you go looking for a torch, you have to either decide whether you are going to use natural gas or not. The reason is that there are less torches that will run on ng than torches that won't. NG is generally only piped into a residence at a very low lpm, like 2, so the torch has to be able to run on that low amount. If you have propane and tanked oxy, then you can run any torch, but when you throw in "perhaps ng", then you are limiting your choices.

I know that someone said they don't like the GTT torches because they don't have radiant heat. As someone who has used many different brands of torches over the years, I can only say that that is one of the selling points to me, although as kbinkster pointed out it can be adjusted to have that radiant heat. For me, I want less radiant heat. What you need to do is decide on the torch and then learn to use it. Anyone can use almost any torch as long as they take the time to learn to use it. Some torches suit certain people because of the flame chemistry - more reductive, less reductive. Some people like the radiant heat and others like to be able to work without it. So, whatever torch you choose, if you take the time you can learn it's idiosyncracies and learn to use it where it is most beneficial to you. Also, something to keep in mind, torches can be sold used very easily, so if you do buy a torch and use it for a certain amount ot time, you can most always get a lot of your investment out of it.

[kbinkster]

I just re-posted a post comparing the gas consumption of the Bobat to the Minor and Mini CC onto another thread. It's a long read, but here it is (the Bobcat info is about half-way down):

The original intent of this thread was to compare the Mini CC to the Minor Burner. I gave my opinion earlier, but I thought that I should do some sort of testing and measuring to quantify things (back it up with facts). I got Willy and Wally to help me.

We took a Minor Burner and a Mini CC (the high-oxy version, the one that is supposed to have the wider flame) and ran them at various pressure settings and candle lengths. We measured the oxygen and fuel consumption at these settings with high precision flow and pressure meters. We also measured the candle lengths and flame widths with calipers. The flame lengths were measured with a measuring tape. I compiled all the data into some charts, which I will attach as a Word file. Tables don’t copy and paste very well onto posts.

I should mention that I do not stand to gain anything by recommending one of these torches over the other.

Wally starts out by measuring the torches at 5 psi oxygen and ¼ psi propane. He measures the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Minor Burner Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:

Candle length: 0.40”
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 11 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Mini CC Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:

Candle length: 0.30”
Flame width: 0.5”
Flame length: 7”
Oxygen consumption: 12 CFH
Propane consumption: slightly less than 2 CFH

The Minor Burner achieves a larger flame than the Mini CC at low pressure settings.

Wally then bumps up the pressures to 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane and takes measurements while running the minimum length candles Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. He also takes measurements while running the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Minor Burner at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 9 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Minor Burner at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 1.25”
Flame width: 1”
Flame length: 12”
Oxygen consumption: 16 CFH
Propane consumption: 5 CFH


Mini CC at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 14 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Mini CC at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 0.65”
Flame width: 0.80”
Flame length: 12”
Oxygen consumption: 20 CFH
Propane consumption: 5 CFH

When running 3/8” candles on 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Minor Burner and the Mini CC have the same sized flame, but the Minor uses less oxygen.

At this pressure setting, the Minor was able to attain a flame suitable for working boro that had candles that were 0.825” long. The flame was .950” wide and 12” long. The Minor used 12 CFH oxygen and 4 CFH propane to support this flame.

Wally pushes the candles out further to 1.25”, but there is not much gain. The flame is 1” wide and still 12” long and on the edge of distorting. The candles are streaky, but the flame has not yet distorted. The Minor uses 16 CFH oxygen and 5 CFH propane to support this flame.

At 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Minor has a better range of flame sizes than the Mini CC, which only has a small window to work in. There is not much variation in the flame offered by the Mini CC.

We also measure the Bobcat under the same conditions as the Minor and the Mini CC. If you are interested in how they fair when compared, as well as our findings concerning radiant heat, continue on.



We run the Bobcat at 5 psi oxygen and ¼ psi propane and measure the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Bobcat Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:

Candle length: 0.60”
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 13”
Oxygen consumption: 12 CFH
Propane consumption: 3 CFH

At the lower pressure setting, the Minor is able to get a larger flame than the Mini CC. But, the Bobcat achieves a larger flame, yet. The Bobcat has more top end at the lower pressures than either the Minor or the Mini CC.

The pressures are increased to 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane and measurements are taken while running the minimum length candles Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. Measurements are also taken while running the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Bobcat at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 6 CFH
Propane consumption: 1 CFH

Bobcat at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 1.5625”
Flame width: 1”
Flame length: 16”
Oxygen consumption: 16 CFH
Propane consumption: 6 CFH

All three torches are capable of achieving the same size flame when running 3/8” candles at 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane. However, the Bobcat consumes less oxygen and propane when doing so.

Oh, and a word about radiant heat... All three torches appear to have the same radiant heat.

Wally uses a simple technique to test this. He takes the wooden end of a match stick (not the head) and carefully approaches the body of the flame (about 3.5” from the face of the torch) until the wood ignites from the radiant heat. He measures the distance from the side of the flame to the point where the wood ignites. That distance is right at 0.300” for each of the three torches.

When running the largest flame attainable at 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Bobcat has a larger flame than either the Minor or the Mini CC. This means that the Bobcat has a higher top end and you can make larger items on a Bobcat before needing to upgrade to a larger torch.

You may ask why we run the test with 3/8” candles and not ¼” candles, since 3/8” candles is very aggressive and is the higher end of a soft glass flame. The reason we run the candles to 3/8” is because that is the minimum candle length Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. They state that running candles shorter than 3/8” will cause excessive carboning and overheating. They aren’t kidding. Before running the tests, Wally runs the Mini CC with neutral candles ¼” long. In only 10 minutes, he sees carbon forming on the bottom jet. The jet is glowing. The knobs are so hot that they sting when he touches them. He turns off the torch for fear that running it any longer at that setting would damage it. The Minor and the Bobcat can both be run with much shorter, more controllable/less aggressive candles. While testing my own Bobcat the other night, I am able to run 1/16” candles (all blue, no white/yellow tips) for over half an hour before getting bored and moving on to working glass. I have absolutely no carboning when running this flame.

When you run a lot of oxygen through a torch, you should not get carboning. This is why Carlisle recommends a minimum 3/8” candle length. A neutral flame at that candle length has enough oxygen to keep the torch from carboning. But, even with 3/8” candles, heat still loads up on the body of the Mini CC and makes it uncomfortable to work with. If you need to run a small flame on a Mini CC, Carlisle instructs you to first get a neutral flame with 3/8” candles and then back off the propane. This makes a colder flame that is not very useful. With the Mini CC, you are pretty much stuck working with a limited variation in flame sizes. They may claim that a small cold flame is a good thing, but it is not. When I work with stringers, I want to weld them to my base bead so they don’t pop off later. You need a hot enough small flame to do this. A cold small flame might bend a stringer, but it does not weld it very well to the base bead. Oh, and when you want to do melt-ins, you really want your small flame to be hot.

It is still my opinion that the Minor Burner is a better torch than the Mini CC. It is also my opinion that the Bobcat is a better torch than either the Minor or the Mini CC.

Willy and I ran my Barracuda and took all of the same measurements of the centerfire, except for the oxygen and propane consumption rates. I will post a separate thread with the results for anyone interested.

[alexm]

Probably the best advice I can give you is, if possible, try out several torches. I live within driving distance of Arrow Springs and they let me come and test drive as many torches as I wanted. It really narrowed down my choices quickly and helped me to make the best decision when I wanted to upgrade from my Bobcat. I realize the chances are you don't live near Arrow Springs, but perhaps you are close enough to a supplier or a open studio that will let you use several torches.

Your choice of torch will depend on many factors, some of which you may not even be aware of yet since you have only been torching for 2 months. What Pam said about trading up is spot on. If you are not happy with whatever torch you get, it's easy to sell it here or on eBay and get another one.

If you are going to use propane, I would recommend the GTT Bobcat. It fits your parameters quite well. Unless you torch for several hours each day, it will be a while before you outgrow it.

Pros:
It's certainly hot enough to do just about any kind of soft glass bead.
It's very fuel efficient.
It's hot enough to do small boro beads, by small I mean up to about 20mm in diameter round beads.
It's got a narrow but hot flame.

Cons:
It's got a narrow but hot flame for its size. It doesn't put out a lot of radiant heat, but that can be a good thing depending on what you want to do. I love the Bobcat for small detail work for that reason.