Questions about torch gas and oxygen psi?

[Mr. Smiley]

Kind of, but not really... you are getting my point a bit.

The volume is changed by putting your finger over it and restricting the flow... the pressure in the hose determines how fast the water goes through that restriction. The higher the pressure, the faster the water moves through the same sized space. This increase in pressure is directly connected to the increse in velocity. Thus making the water shoot further. Now, if you fill a bucket with that hose, you can see the vortex and eddie effects I'm talking about. The bucket represents the manifold inside the torch. You can fill a bucket gently with less pressure and a bigger openeing just as fast as you can fill it with higher pressure and a smaller opening. The volume doesn't change, but the way the water reacts when it enters the bucket space is totally different. One is excited and the other is relaxed. It's night and day inside a torch manifold as well.

Now you've got me explaining this with a hose, a bucket and water... damn, I can't beleive you got me to play with the hose idea! Thanks Robert.

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Kind of, but not really... you are getting my point a bit.

The volume is changed by putting your finger over it and restricting the flow... the pressure in the hose determines how fast the water goes through that restriction. The higher the pressure, the faster the water moves through the same sized space. This increase in pressure is directly connected to the increse in velocity. Thus making the water shoot further. Now, if you fill a bucket with that hose, you can see the vortex and eddie effects I'm talking about. The bucket represents the manifold inside the torch. You can fill a bucket gently with less pressure and a bigger openeing just as fast as you can fill it with higher pressure and a smaller opening. The volume doesn't change, but the way the water reacts when it enters the bucket space is totally different. One is excited and the other is relaxed. It's night and day inside a torch manifold as well.

Now you've got me explaining this with a hose, a bucket and water... damn, I can't beleive you got me to play with the hose idea! Thanks Robert.

You know you love it.

So how would these different psi settings affect the flame?

Would you only get a harder driving flame or would the flame be hotter?

[Mr. Smiley]

The flame is going to be it's hotest when a balance is acheived. When the right amount of both fuels mix efficiently. The flame characteristics are different at every setting. When one thing changes, everything changes. There is a specific setting on every torch that will produce the most heat. Adjusting pressures and valves will give you an endless variety of flame characteristics (reducing, neutral, oxydized, soft, driving... etc). The sweet spot is different for every torch and what works best is not always the hottest... and what creates the hottest flame on one torch certainly won't be right for another. I am just now finding the real sweet spot on my Cuda. It's so hot I can't believe it. It's totally diffent than a super hot GTT flame. It sounds different and it looks different. Play with it and find what works. The specs by the manufacturer are guide lines and a great starting point. Your guages may not be calibrated to the same specs as theirs... It's all fun and if it was super simple, it wouldn't be half as interesting.

[kbinkster]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are some photos of a soft flame at three different pressure settings and one picture showing a big flame on higher tank pressures - what limits the upper end.

The torch in the photos is a GTT Lynx (handtorch). The diameter of the face is 3/8". I have labeled the regulator pressure settings on each photo.



As you can see, you can get a very similar flame, regardless of the regulator pressure settings. The needle valves control the gas going into the torch.

[Mr. Smiley]

Can you demonstrate that with a bench torch... say the lynx, the Phanton and a Mirage? The valves are so far from the ports on that hand torch, that it definitely calms the turbulence created by the valves choking the fuel. Remember that distance play an important part as well.

[jokersdesign]

Kim, that rocks! Hard to argue with those pictures.

Whose arm is in the picture?

Hey is GTT making any new torch models? If so I’d suggest the Delta Mag Jr, Lynx > Phantom > Mirage.

Then a super duper Lynx, @ stage Lynx with 1 port center fire.

[Mr. Smiley]

Just showered... I'm squeaky clean... congrats Kim on finding one little flame on a long arse torch to demonstrate your point. Can you show us how the larger soft flames can be produced with high pressures as well? I know there are glass workers that use a larger soft flame for soft glass. I'd like to see one that isn't a little short thing. My point never was that a soft flame wasn't possible at all with high pressure... My point is that high pressure can adversly effect the ability of a torch to make a soft flame... size matters here. The turbulence in the gas is increased with volume. Make a medium and large sized soft flame with your torch on high pressure. The bennefits of backing down the regs has a range as well. Not all flames can be made with one setting and that is my point in it's entirety.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Can you demonstrate that with a bench torch... say the lynx, the Phanton and a Mirage? The valves are so far from the ports on that hand torch, that it definitely calms the turbulence created by the valves choking the fuel. Remember that distance play an important part as well.

Oh, for crying out loud. This happens to be the torch running on a tank right now, so this is the torch that got photographed. You can get the exact same flame out of a Lynx bench burner - or the centerfires of a Phantom, Mirage, Delta Elite, Delta Mag, Cobra, or Python, for that matter. If the flame on the hand torch were different than the flame on a bench burner, then they would have to call it by another name, now, wouldn't they?

You should be able to get a similar flame on any of the surface mix torches out there at various tank pressures, provided the valves are decent. I would not try the 50 psi oxygen/20 psi propane flame on the Bethlehem Barracuda only because they say not to use pressures higher than 25 psi with their valves.

Are you saying that you cannot control the flame on your Barracuda at higher tank pressures? If this is the case, then it sounds like there could be a problem here with the Bethlehem valves. From what you are saying, the valves seem like they are not able to control the flow precisely enough at the higher tank pressures. Otherwise, you would definitely be able to dial in a similar flame to the one I photographed at a higher tank pressure or a lower tank pressure.

The flame I photographed at 50 psi oxygen/20 psi propane (from a GTT Lynx hand torch) sounded exactly the same as the flame at 5 psi oxygen/2 psi propane. There was no whooshing sound. You mentioned hearing a whooshing sound from your Barracuda when you run higher pressures. Is this an inherent problem with all Bethlehem torches? Or, maybe there is something going on with your valves, like a burr(s) in the valve orifices, causing the excessive noise you are experiencing at higher pressures.

I'm not attacking Bethlehem here. It just happens to be the torch you are using and getting these "symptoms" from. It sounds like your valves are not "precision" enough to control the flow of gas and oxygen at higher pressures, in my opinion.

As far as the other stuff...

You are looking at a manifold as if it were a bucket. Buckets are big empty chambers. Manifolds are not. Manifolds are a series of channels that direct the fuel and oxgen to their proper ports.

Sure, when you restrict an opening so far, it forces that gas to go through harder. But, there is a point where it no longer makes it go faster, it actually makes it slow down.

[Mr. Smiley]

What ever works for you Kimberly. I would have no problem working a Cuda at higher pressures. They don't suggest it because of bad valves... they understand physics and the increased pressure if out of the range for useful flame characteristics...

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

Kim, that rocks! Hard to argue with those pictures.

Whose arm is in the picture?

Hey is GTT making any new torch models? If so I’d suggest the Delta Mag Jr, Lynx > Phantom > Mirage.

Then a super duper Lynx, @ stage Lynx with 1 port center fire.

That is Willy's arm in the picture.

Once you know how to control the flames, the Mirage can imitate the Phantom flame. So, I don't think they will be making the Delta Mag, Jr.

GTT has made single port torches. Al Janelle has one and calls it his "cheater torch." He uses it in addition to his regular torch.

Try getting the needle flame on your centerfire by running the red and blue valves only. You can get a tiny flame that is small as the smallest tip on a Smith Jewelers' torch.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

What ever works for you Kimberly. I would have no problem working a Cuda at higher pressures. They don't suggest it because of bad valves... they understand physics and the increased pressure if out of the range for useful flame characteristics...

Well, their operating instructions clearly state:

"DO NOT EXCEED 25 lbs. pressure on any feed. Excess pressure may cause gas or oxygen to leak through the valves and increase the chance of leakage through the hose connections."

That is why I said that I would not run the Barracuda at 50 psi oxygen and 20 psi propane.

[Mr. Smiley]

I guess they like having information on their site and what company doesn't cover their butts when it comes to liability? I can't wait for the new quad mix torches... those are gonna be sweet. Even more control over combustion and efficiency.

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

That is Willy's arm in the picture.

Once you know how to control the flames, the Mirage can imitate the Phantom flame. So, I don't think they will be making the Delta Mag, Jr.

GTT has made single port torches. Al Janelle has one and calls it his "cheater torch." He uses it in addition to his regular torch.

Try getting the needle flame on your centerfire by running the red and blue valves only. You can get a tiny flame that is small as the smallest tip on a Smith Jewelers' torch.

Hey Kim,

I'm seaching google right now, but do you happen to have a picture of the "cheater torch"?

I'm looking at some of Al Janelle is his work is amazing.

So if I wanted GTT could make a Cheater torch for me? It's just not something they are going to ever go into production with.

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I guess they like having information on their site and what company doesn't cover their butts when it comes to liability? I can't wait for the new quad mix torches... those are gonna be sweet. Even more control over combustion and efficiency.

That might be cool but like microsoft windows, I'm sick of new versions coming out every 2 years.

Is Bethlehem at least going to offer 4 stud options?

[jokersdesign]

If I was judge keeping score I have it 2 to 1 in favor of kbinkster.

[kbinkster]

Oh, so "Turning the precision needle valves easily changes flame settings" is really there to "cover their butts?

[Mr. Smiley]

Of course the needle valve changes the flame settings... duh... and no, I never said that statement was made to limit liability. Are we having the same conversation?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Of course the needle valve changes the flame settings... duh... and no, I never said that statement was made to limit liability. Are we having the same conversation?

It was in response to:

I guess they like having information on their site and what company doesn't cover their butts when it comes to liability?

See, this is why I prefer using quotes and addressing issues one-by-one.

[Mr. Smiley]

That was right after you questioned the reliability of their valves... nothing was said on my part about "everything" on their site being part of limiting liability. Sheesh. This has become tired and since we aren't going to stay on point... I'll retire from the conversation. Maybe you should call Henry Grimmet and tell him he should change his lecture on how gas pressures determine how a torch operates... as a matter of fact, there are several people you should contact and show them the light of your wisdom. A whole crap load of experts have obviously got it all wrong.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

That was right after you questioned the reliability of their valves... nothing was said on my part about "everything" on their site being part of limiting liability. Sheesh. This has become tired and since we aren't going to stay on point... I'll retire from the conversation. Maybe you should call Henry Grimmet and tell him he should change his lecture on how gas pressures determine how a torch operates... as a matter of fact, there are several people you should contact and show them the light of your wisdom. A whole crap load of experts have obviously got it all wrong.

I was wondering if you got that notion about changing pressures from Henry.

Henry has been warned about this, and he said that he stopped putting that out. So, he's still saying this, huh. Thanks for the info.

The reason he started putting that out was because his colors are sensitive to reduction. When he first used a GTT torch to work the colors, he said that it was just perfect for them. Then, people started accusing GA of having some sort of deal with GTT to try and monopolize the glass industry since the GTTs were the only toches that could run GA colors. So, to make his colors work well for other torches, he came out with his theory. The standard torches out there will go into a reduction flame rather easily when trying to get a big flame. The valves are not "precision" enough to fine tune the flame at higher pressures. So, in order to better control the valves, and make them more forgiving, you need to lower the pressure at the tanks. Higher pressure will make the valves touchier/more responsive. Lower pressure will make the valve less touchy/less responsive, allowing a greater margin of error. Those torches need that forgiveness when running the big flame, because the big flame is what can slip into reduction easily, not a little flame.

This does not apply to GTTs, as their valves are very precise and they (the GTT torches) just operate differently - and it does not apply to other torches when running a regular flame for soft glass, because you do not need that big flame like you do with boro.

There are applications where you would benefit from having more or less responsive valves. But, the fact remains that the needle valves control the gas that goes through the torch.

EDIT:
"A whole crap load of experts have obviously got it all wrong."
Arrow Springs didn't get it wrong.

[hotflashwanda]

I must say that this has been an interesting thread, what with the mud-slinging and mixed metaphors (urine streams coming out of hoses and such). I'm going out to have a blast melting glass with my Barracuda, which is not defective in any way nor does it sport any strange yellow fingers of flame when adjusted properly. Oh, and it will be set at 5 psi propane and 18 psi oxygen, cuz then it just rocks those boro colors!
Anita
www.fireflybeads.com

[Mr. Smiley]

Henry didn't tell me a thing. I am explaining it as I understand it. It just makes sense. Don't think that I can't think for myself... I just know Henry had explained it to somebody the same way. I'm sorry you aren't getting it. Don't "warn" Henry about anything because of something I said.

[jokersdesign]

http://users.mn.astound.net/jokersdesign/psi.jpg

[Mr. Smiley]

Neat picture bro... very scientific. Now it makes perfect sense...

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

Hey Kim,

I'm seaching google right now, but do you happen to have a picture of the "cheater torch"?

I'm looking at some of Al Janelle is his work is amazing.

So if I wanted GTT could make a Cheater torch for me? It's just not something they are going to ever go into production with.

It would be a custom job, Robert. So, it would take longer than "two weeks."

[jokersdesign]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Neat picture bro... very scientific. Now it makes perfect sense...

LOL

I'm not posting it at you or trying to get you to understand.

If I understand it right I think you both are right but are making different points.

Higher psi makes the torch valves more touchy.

and

Higher psi make the makes a hard driving flame at the same volume instead of a soft flame.

[Mr. Smiley]

You've got it man... that pretty much sums it up in a very basic nutshell. I don't disagree with any of that. Basically, use what ever torch setting makes you happy. If it's working, it doesn't need fixing.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

LOL

I'm not posting it at you or trying to get you to understand.

If I understand it right I think you both are right but are making different points.

Higher psi makes the torch valves more touchy.

and

Higher psi make the makes a hard driving flame at the same volume instead of a soft flame.

If your needle valve is all the way open, yes.

If you are using a gate valve, a ball valve, or even a needle valve that is not precise enough, you will have problems controlling the flow. But, yes, higher pressures make the valves touchier.

The needle valve controls the pressure and the flow. They control what is getting to that torch. So, the more you open your needle valve, the higher pressure you will have going through the torch.

You can get a soft flame even when using a higher pressure setting on the regulator because the needle valves control the pressure and the volume of gas going into that torch.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

You've got it man... that pretty much sums it up in a very basic nutshell. I don't disagree with any of that. Basically, use what ever torch setting makes you happy. If it's working, it doesn't need fixing.

People definitely have their preferences when it comes to how responsive their valve control is. But when deciding what pressures to set the regulators to, they should keep in mind the following (from the Arrow Springs web site - emphasis mine):

The best pressure to use for oxygen is between 20 and 25 pounds. Use 10 to 15 pounds for the propane.

Using these pressure settings will make the pressure regulators perform better and have a longer life. Some propane pressure regulators have a red danger zone on the delivery pressure gauge. This only applies when the pressure regulator is used with acetylene. Disregard it when using propane. Many torches give suggested pressure settings that are lower than what is stated here. These pressures are actually what the torch works best at, at a minimum. Supplying higher pressure does not affect the torch or increase gas consumption. The actual pressure that the torch will operate on is what you manually set using the torch's valves.

[Mr. Smiley]

This is so friggin hilarious. I've been laughing all day. I really have. When I had my Mirage, I was told by several people... not sure who, my memory fails me... but I was told to turn down my pressure at the tank reg, because I was having a problem working the soft glass with such a fast driving flame. No matter how good you say your valves are, they can't produce a large soft flame unless you turn down line pressure. For any of you that beleive Kimberly, get on a bigger torch on tanked oxy and just try it. You may get a small soft flame like the one she showed, but when you turn the valves open further to get a larger flame, it's rushing at a high rate... this can only be corrected by adjusting line pressure. Period. No magical valve can do that job. GTT makes a heck of a torch, but it just can't do what she claims... Anybody that can show me a torch that can some how produce a flame in the middle to upper range of that torch in size, in both soft and driving depending only on valve settings, can have a full days worth of my work. Which, if I'm arguing a point with Kimberly that day, won't be much.