HELP! Mini CC vs. Minor? Input?

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by nagibeads

hmmm....if it is a choice between mini CC and Minor, I say go with mini CC.....

Why do you prefer the Mini CC over the Minor?

[bclogan]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

No, but I may be able to find a buyer for that Mini CC. I have a customer looking for one. I'll talk to her this weekend and let you know...

I have a Minor, not a Mini-CC

[kramdas]

Hi, me here , was I gone that long? Um, Cosmo-I'm thinking Bobcat...one oxycon with that one and I'm good to go, right? I like the way it's built better than the Knight (knob and port placement) and the idea of being able to resell easily is a big plus for me in case I made a mistake....think that will work for my situation? If you agree and carry them, put that one on my list please......if I don't choose soon, I see this could go on forever!!! And since I can't try any myself, I'm just gonna go for it...whenever you get a chance, I'll be looking for your email! Thanks! And thank you all-LE is a great place to be!

[Cosmo]

The Bobcat will work for what you are doing.

I don't sell GTT. I have been trying to sell them for the past year. I even offered to buy $15,000 worth of torches up front, and they said no. If you want one, best bet is to go to them directly.

[kramdas]

Cosmo- pm'd you

[nagibeads]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Why do you prefer the Mini CC over the Minor?

I have a minor and have worked on a mini CC and for me the Mini CC gets way hotter than the Minor. It's got a broad flame (More reducing than the GTTs) and if she decides to go boro in the future, she may have better luck with the Mini....Not saying the Minor isn't good--I liked it for what I used it for(perfect for small details and gives awesome reduction). If I was just making beads, I think it is a great torch. The flame size is smaller than the Mini as well.
The torch does get really hot on the Mini(knobs can be too hot for me). The knobs stay cool on the Minor...

[barbaracollins]

The knobs on my MiniCC do not get hot. I use a Tornado concentrator from Unlimited Oxygen. But I cannot wait to get the new Hellcat from Carlisle!

[kbinkster]

I prefer the Minor over the Mini CC. But, I want to back up my opinion with some facts. So, I got Willy and Wally to help me test some flames.

We took a Minor Burner and a Mini CC (the high-oxy version, the one that is supposed to have the wider flame) and ran them at various pressure settings and candle lengths. We measured the oxygen and fuel consumption at these settings with high precision flow and pressure meters. We also measured the candle lengths and flame widths with calipers. The flame lengths were measured with a measuring tape. I compiled all the data into some charts, which I will attach as a Word file. Tables don’t copy and paste very well onto posts.

I should mention that I do not stand to gain anything by recommending one of these torches over the other.



Wally starts out by measuring the torches at 5 psi oxygen and ¼ psi propane. He measures the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Minor Burner Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:

Candle length: 0.40”
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 11 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Mini CC Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:
Candle length: 0.30”
Flame width: 0.5”
Flame length: 7”
Oxygen consumption: 12 CFH
Propane consumption: slightly less than 2 CFH

The Minor Burner achieves a larger flame than the Mini CC at low pressure settings.

Wally then bumps up the pressures to 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane and takes measurements while running the minimum length candles Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. He also takes measurements while running the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Minor Burner at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 9 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Minor Burner at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 1.25”
Flame width: 1”
Flame length: 12”
Oxygen consumption: 16 CFH
Propane consumption: 5 CFH


Mini CC at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 14 CFH
Propane consumption: 2 CFH

Mini CC at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 0.65”
Flame width: 0.80”
Flame length: 12”
Oxygen consumption: 20 CFH
Propane consumption: 5 CFH

When running 3/8” candles on 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Minor Burner and the Mini CC have the same sized flame, but the Minor uses less oxygen.

At this pressure setting, the Minor was able to attain a flame suitable for working boro that had candles that were 0.825” long. The flame was .950” wide and 12” long. The Minor used 12 CFH oxygen and 4 CFH propane to support this flame.

Wally pushes the candles out further to 1.25”, but there is not much gain. The flame is 1” wide and still 12” long and on the edge of distorting. The candles are streaky, but the flame has not yet distorted. The Minor uses 16 CFH oxygen and 5 CFH propane to support this flame.

At 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Minor has a better range of flame sizes than the Mini CC, which only has a small window to work in. There is not much variation in the flame offered by the Mini CC.

We also measure the Bobcat under the same conditions as the Minor and the Mini CC. If you are interested in how they fair when compared, as well as our findings concerning radiant heat, continue on.



We run the Bobcat at 5 psi oxygen and ¼ psi propane and measure the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Bobcat Maximum Flame at 5 psi Oxygen ¼ psi Propane:
Candle length: 0.60”
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 13”
Oxygen consumption: 12 CFH
Propane consumption: 3 CFH

At the lower pressure setting, the Minor is able to get a larger flame than the Mini CC. But, the Bobcat achieves a larger flame, yet. The Bobcat has more top end at the lower pressures than either the Minor or the Mini CC.

The pressures are increased to 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane and measurements are taken while running the minimum length candles Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. Measurements are also taken while running the largest usable flame (before the flame falls apart and distorts).

Bobcat at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Neutral Flame with 3/8” candles:

Candle length: 0.375” (3/8”)
Flame width: 0.75”
Flame length: 11”
Oxygen consumption: 6 CFH
Propane consumption: 1 CFH

Bobcat at 8 psi Oxygen and 2 psi Propane
Maximum Boro Flame:

Candle length: 1.5625”
Flame width: 1”
Flame length: 16”
Oxygen consumption: 16 CFH
Propane consumption: 6 CFH

All three torches are capable of achieving the same size flame when running 3/8” candles at 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane. However, the Bobcat consumes less oxygen and propane when doing so.

Oh, and a word about radiant heat... All three torches appear to have the same radiant heat.

Wally uses a simple technique to test this. He takes the wooden end of a match stick (not the head) and carefully approaches the body of the flame (about 3.5” from the face of the torch) until the wood ignites from the radiant heat. He measures the distance from the side of the flame to the point where the wood ignites. That distance is right at 0.300” for each of the three torches.

When running the largest flame attainable at 8 psi oxygen and 2 psi propane, the Bobcat has a larger flame than either the Minor or the Mini CC. This means that the Bobcat has a higher top end and you can make larger items on a Bobcat before needing to upgrade to a larger torch.

You may ask why we run the test with 3/8” candles and not ¼” candles, since 3/8” candles is very aggressive and is the higher end of a soft glass flame. The reason we run the candles to 3/8” is because that is the minimum candle length Carlisle recommends for the Mini CC. They state that running candles shorter than 3/8” will cause excessive carboning and overheating. They aren’t kidding. Before running the tests, Wally runs the Mini CC with neutral candles ¼” long. In only 10 minutes, he sees carbon forming on the bottom jet. The jet is glowing. The knobs are so hot that they sting when he touches them. He turns off the torch for fear that running it any longer at that setting would damage it. The Minor and the Bobcat can both be run with much shorter, more controllable/less aggressive candles. While testing my own Bobcat the other night, I am able to run 1/16” candles (all blue, no white/yellow tips) for over half an hour before getting bored and moving on to working glass. I have absolutely no carboning when running this flame.

When you run a lot of oxygen through a torch, you should not get carboning. This is why Carlisle recommends a minimum 3/8” candle length. A neutral flame at that candle length has enough oxygen to keep the torch from carboning. But, even with 3/8” candles, heat still loads up on the body of the Mini CC and makes it uncomfortable to work with. If you need to run a small flame on a Mini CC, Carlisle instructs you to first get a neutral flame with 3/8” candles and then back off the propane. This makes a colder flame that is not very useful. With the Mini CC, you are pretty much stuck working with a limited variation in flame sizes. They may claim that a small cold flame is a good thing, but it is not. When I work with stringers, I want to weld them to my base bead so they don’t pop off later. You need a hot enough small flame to do this. A cold small flame might bend a stringer, but it does not weld it very well to the base bead. Oh, and when you want to do melt-ins, you really want your small flame to be hot.

It is still my opinion that the Minor Burner is a better torch than the Mini CC. It is also my opinion that the Bobcat is a better torch than either the Minor or the Mini CC.

Willy and I ran my Barracuda and took all of the same measurements of the centerfire, except for the oxygen and propane consumption rates. I will post a separate thread with the results for anyone interested.

[PaulaD]

Thanks Kbinkster and Wally for taking the time to do these tests.

[Tanja]

Kara, just curious if you did get the Bobcat? And if so do you like it? I'm in the same boat. I sold my minor and want to work with smaller boro stuff, as well as hang on to soft glass.

[Beckah]

Kimberly, since you ran the torch tests with tanked oxygen and the numbers are given in PSI -- how would this relate to oxycons and LPM?

[kbinkster]

It relates very closely. The pressures that we used correspond with the concentrators commonly used (Invacare and Mobileair put out 5 psi, Regalia puts out 7-9 psi, DeVilbiss MC puts out 8.5 psi).

We used CFH (cubic feet per hour) to measure flow. Concentrators express the flow in terms of LPM (liters per minute). It's fairly easy to convert CFH to LPM. The quick and dirty method is to just to take half of the CFH to get a rough approximation of LPM. If you really want to be accurate on the conversion, I have the formula on my website.

Basically, the less oxygen it takes to achieve a certain flame, the more efficient the torch is. The more efficient it is, the better use it makes of a limited oxygen supply. In other words, the torches that do the job using less oxygen will perform better on a concentrator than the one that uses more oxygen to do the same job (if it even can).

[kramdas]

Tanja-I actually got so frustrated with the whole situation that I decided to get a Minor instead (still sitting in the box!). I've heard only good things about it, and figured it was an inexpensive enough way to get my feet wet. (I didn't have an opportunity to try out any torches around here either...) Unfortunately I cannot tell you how I like it yet

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by kramdas

Tanja-I actually got so frustrated with the whole situation that I decided to get a Minor instead (still sitting in the box!). I've heard only good things about it, and figured it was an inexpensive enough way to get my feet wet. (I didn't have an opportunity to try out any torches around here either...) Unfortunately I cannot tell you how I like it yet

I've honestly never heard of anyone not liking a minor, so I think you'll be very happy...

[Tanja]

Kara,

You will love the minor. I sure loved mine. It was hard to part with it. I'm almost to the point you were though....so many directions you can go and it's hard to know if you're doing the right thing or not.

[kramdas]

Thanks Cosmo and Tanja for the reassurance!!! I'm a bit nervous about learning all of the adjustments with the flame settings, but after 5 years on a HH I figure it's about time I took the plunge!