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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2009-08-15, 2:32am
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Default Copper or Flexible Gas Line, Which is Safest?

Ok. So I'm struggling to get all this stuff needed to get hooked up so i can finally start torching. I have purchased all the fittings and regulators, black pipe, flashback arrestor, Two shut off valves on each side of wall blah blah...needed to hook up a propane tank safely. I am planning on using Dale's straight through the wall method of piping the propane into the shop.

Here's the Deal Now:

WHICH type of flexible pipe to use?
*Soft Copper
OR
* Flexible Stainless Line?

Pros and Cons of Flexible Line:
The flexible is ready to purchase online and easy to install. But I"m very concerned about it's durability and also the way the companies that sell it recommend that you "purchase a new line each time you move an appliance" in case it disturbs the line somehow and it cracks or something....so I'll be hooking and unhooking this like what 3? 6? times a year depending on propane usage. That sounds like a potential serious problem doesn't it? And probably not the way it was intended to be used. (Although I'm definately no expert that's why I'm asking). Just saying...

Pros and Cons of Soft Copper:
Soft Copper sounds more durable. But is it? To be honest I don't know squat about soft copper tubing except that it's what is hooked up behind my fridge.
Is it more durable? I know one con is that you have to have someone make it up for you OR you have to have the tools to "flare" the ends and compression fit the threaded ends on properly. That will be a problem for me unless I can find a place to purchase it online already fixed up. Or if I can find someone here who I could do it and pay them.

I really want to get this taken care of quickly because all my supplies are coming in hot and heavy now and I want to have everything ready to get set up as soon as possible.

So I"m taking a poll, What do you recommend? What do you use?

***Also, in case of soft copper tubing, is there anyone here who you recommend that definately knows what they are doing that might be willing to make up a copper line for me all ready to hook up for a fair price? That might be a possible option.
Someone who is a trusted regular here who has the proper credentials should offer that service and charge a fair price that makes it worth their while and the buyers while also. I bet there's a lot of us who's appreciate it!
Thanks so much
Michele
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Last edited by ShellyJo1969; 2009-08-15 at 2:38am.
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  #2  
Old 2009-08-15, 7:28am
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The comment about purchasing a new line every time appliance is moved is because "a appliance" sets in one place for many years, and NEVER moves, the flex stays in one place for that time.... It takes a set and becomes brittle....Once you move it there is a danger if it cracking.... It can happen but does not always happen...

Soft copper copper may be better choice if you are adept at getting "connections made" or have a "shop" make it up for you, but you want to do the online thing....

Look at this item........

http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=355&id=57

or...

http://www.bigway.com/CARTgallery34.htm

****************

A good local "handy man" might be your best friend when you are trying to put all this together.... Generally a handyman is a "jack of all trades" and a master at none, but has enough experience at doing just about anything and can keep you out of trouble....

****************

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-08-15 at 7:33am.
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  #3  
Old 2009-08-15, 8:50am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Dale makes some good points about the flexible line. It's one of the reasons why I like soft copper better for this kind of thing - but please bear in mind, that's just my personal preference.

Soft copper is pretty rugged stuff, in my opinion. I installed a fair amount of it myself in a vacation cabin I run off propane and have never had it leak or degrade in any way (over many years). If you go this way and have a couple of strain-relief loops put in it (soft copper tubing comes pre-coiled in the box, anyway), you'll be able to connect/disconnect your tanks many times over many years without issue - maybe forever if you're reasonably careful. You can put a kink in it if you're rough with it, but for the kinds gas flows/pressures you need for your torch, it's not a big deal if you do (unless you bend it so hard you pinch it off completely).

Remember that the part of your propane installation where you will be using either flex line or soft copper is outside - as is your tank. If you ever had a problem with either the flex or copper, and you have good air flow around your tank so that any propane that leaks can't pool, you might have the annoyance of having lost a tank of propane, but no serious safety issue.

If you go flex line, you might have to replace it occaisionally, but if you soap it down every time you change your tank (and you should be checking for leaks, anyway, when you put your fresh tank in) and perhaps every so often inbetween refilling your tank, you'll be on top of any potential cracks if they form.

Linda
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  #4  
Old 2009-08-15, 4:12pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Dale, good point. I'll check the links.
Linda, thanks for your input also.

Soft copper still sounds like the way I want to go.

Michele
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  #5  
Old 2009-08-15, 4:56pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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I found this neat video tut on flaring copper tubing, it looks very easy.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/Copper_...ol_Video.shtml


I may just do it myself if I can't find anyone here willing to do it for payment or find a welding shop around here. (By the way, why would a welding shop do it?) Do they have all supplies needed to do that? I know what welding is but I don't know why they'd do copper piping for you?
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Old 2009-08-16, 1:03pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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It truly is as easy to put fittings on the end of soft copper as the video link shows. RV supply stores are more likely to do this for you, as opposed to a welding shop, but there's no need to be afraid to try it yourself. The thing to note in the video is that the speaker had the end of the tubing about flush with the face of the holding tool. You want neither too much flare or too little, otherwise it will leak. For example, for 3/8" tubing, about the right amount of flare is approximately 1/8", or about 1/3 the inner diameter. You will certainly be able to find the soft copper tubing. tubing cutter and the flare nuts at Home Depot or Lowes. You'll also likely be able to find the flaring too there, too.

Once you have your section of soft copper tubing with flare nuts on the end made up, you'll need to find adapters that will take you from a flare fitting on one end to a pipe thread fitting on the other to connect to your black pipe on the outside wall of your work area (you won't need the hose barb fitting on that end that DeAnne shows in her tut). Those you should be able to find in the plumbing section of HD along with the soft copper, etc. Connecting the other end to the regulator on your tank will require adapters that will take you from a flare fitting on one end to a "B" fitting on the other (typical fitting on the ends of propane/acetylene regulators). You may have to convert from flare to pipe thread first and then from pipe thread to "B" fitting. You will likely need to go to a welding supply store to get the pipe thread to "B" fitting.

Linda
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  #7  
Old 2009-08-16, 4:20pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Linda, I'm sure glad you know what's going on cause I'm lost once again!

I'm cool with the flaring part, after that you lost me! lol!

I think I may have to just find someone to do this for me, heaven knows how. I may have to do the other soft line hook up till I can find someone to do the copper for me. The flaring part obviously is super easy. Finding all the crap to do the other end,,,, threads, nuts, ....etc...makes my head hurt.

I bought all the pieces to do the set up straight through the wall (dale's design) and I know I bought

* 1/2" black pipe with female fittings both ends
* 1/2"x1/4" hex bushings (2)
* 1/2" Gas Ball Valves (2)
* 1/4"x1/4" Barb hoseadaptors (2)

And I can hook them up using the instructions DeAnne gives, but I don't know what size soft line I need now. 1/2" female fitting on one end to hook onto the black pipe, but I dont know what size is on the regulator. Is it also 1/2" or is it 1/4"? I'll have to see if I can pry it out of the package and measure.

I hope to be able to help some newbie someday like you guys/ladies have helped me. I must have asked every question there is so I should have some info to offer someday!
Michele
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  #8  
Old 2009-08-16, 6:09pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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If you feel overwhelmed, I understand completely. The first time I set up my studio, forums like this were just emerging and there was very little info available, so I basically had to figure it out myself. Same thing when I ended up doing a lot of soft copper propane plumbing - in a location so remote that no way could I ever convince someone to come out and do it for me.

The reason why I tried to describe the fittings you might need is because that's usually the most confusing part. Making up the soft copper tubing is pretty easy - understanding the differences between flare type fittings/adapters, pipe thread, and "B" type fittings can take a bit, but is necessary otherwise you won't be able to install the soft copper section. I recommend using 3/8" soft copper because it's pretty easy to work with and usually pretty easy to find the flare fittings in your local hardware stores. Bigger would be harder and a little more expensive. However, that might mean that you will likely not only have to convert from one type of fitting to another, but you may also have to step up/down in size. For example, you would have to convert from 1/2 inch black pipe thread to a 3/8 inch flare that will screw into the nut on the end of your copper tubing. If you search around, you might find a single fitting (usually brass) that will convert 1/2 pipe thread to 3/8 in flare with the right gender on each end. I never got that lucky, however, and found that, in practice, it was often necessary to string several fittings together to cobble up what I needed.

I generally found it easier to go to the plumbing section of my local hardware store(s) in person to ponder the significance of what fittings are available and how they might be connected together. Being able to hold the darn things in my hands to physically see the differences helped all this eventually make sense to me. I would personally never dream of trying to pick out these fittings on the internet, at least not the first couple times trying to do something like this. It's way easier to pick around in the display of bags and play with the parts - and way more probable to go home with the right set of things that will actually work together. The packages are always marked, by the way, with the type/size/gender of thread that's on each end.

I get the sense that you're doing all of the work to set up your studio yourself - which I admire, by the way. Setting up a studio is a great way to learn hands-on skills that you might not otherwise have a reason to learn.

If you're (understandably) not quite ready to take on the challenge of learning how to convert in/out of flare fittings so that you can use the soft copper tubing from your tank to your black pipe, you don't have to go this route immediately. You can safely use a length of T-grade hose from your tank to the black pipe, ala DeAnne's tutorial. It's pretty rugged stuff, so it would be quite some time before you'd need to replace it, especially if you keep it off the ground and wrap it in black plumbing tape (shield it from UV).
The T-grade hose is nice in that you don't have to be so careful about how you handle it when you change your tanks, and you would have time to learn more about the fittings you'd need if you later wanted to replace that section of hose with soft copper. The only fitting I think you don't have on your list that you would need to go this route is a hose barb and "B" fitting propane nut. Sometimes these are available as one piece, but usually they are separate - the barb slides into the nut. The only place I've ever found these items is in a welding supply store or through some of the lampworking suppliers.

It's no problem asking questions - it's the best way to learn.

Linda
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  #9  
Old 2009-08-16, 7:33pm
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Again........

http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=355&id=57

Also the "B" fitting can be removed from regulator and any "other" size/style (flair) fitting can be used as long as one end of fitting is 1/4 inch NPT that threads into (adjustable) regulator body....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-08-16 at 7:39pm.
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Old 2009-08-16, 8:13pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Yup - as Dale notes, the BBQ hose he posted the link to is also a viable option. Has the advantages of the T-grade hose in being flexible, and less fittings to go through. The hose material used in the product he posted his link to seems to last quite a while out in the elements, too.

Shelley - you should feel no more uncomfortable switching out the "B" fitting from the regulator, as Dale suggests, than in making your own flexible copper line. What Dale is suggesting is also an eminently acceptable way to connect your propane tank to the black pipe

You've got several good options

Linda
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  #11  
Old 2009-08-17, 2:36pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Thanks again to you both (Linda,Dale). I'm about as "green" with regards to all of this as anybody could be, but I AM learning! Thanks to everyone here. I truly appreciate it.
I'm gonna probably go with something premade for now and do the copper later after I get some experience and know what's what.
Michele
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Old 2009-08-17, 3:34pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Ok, with regards to Dale's link I found this online

http://bigway.com/CARTgallery36.htm

Will this one work? The one that is 3/8"x3/8" ?

The threaded black pipe nipple I ordered online is 1/2" , and I still don't know what size the hook up is on the regulator because I don't have anything but a plain ruler to measure with and that's not very accurate way to measure something cylindrical.

In case you are wondering why I don't just pop down to my local hardware store and get all this done, there is a reason. We only have one vehicle and my hubby drives an hour to work there and back daily so by the time he gets home nearly everything that would have these types of items is closed. That's why I shop online most of the time. And yes Linda, I am trying to do as much as possible on my own. My husband is willing to help me, he'll have to because I can't do the big heavy stuff on my own anyway, but he's skeptical I guess about having his shop invaded, not to mention he has his plate full at all times and this is My project. So if I can get setup properly, the hard part is over and I can start learning. My greatest triumph would be if I could earn money someday by plying my new glassworking skills! That's my dream. I have earned bits of money sculpting and bits of money making polymer beads and bits of money making jewelry. I hope to use all these past skills to help me in this new endeavor.

Thanks for your advise and patience.
michele
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Old 2009-08-17, 10:11pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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I can certainly appreciate and respect why you shop as much as you can online, given your car limitation. If you were to do as I suggested and go to the hardware store in person, obviously it would have to be on your DH's day off. I think it's great that you're doing your studio yourself, by the way. You can be proud of your accomplishment when you get it done, plus it's fun (at least, I think so!).

You can use either the line Dale suggested in his Mr Heater product link or one of the ones in yours. From yours, either the 20-30 or the 20-40 would probably be the most convenient in terms of the fittings on the ends. You would need to unscrew the small output fitting on your propane regulator and screw in one end of the 20-30, for example. As Dale notes, the threaded hole will be 1/4" pipe thread, which is what both ends of the 20-30 is. You then need to find an a fitting that will let you connect a 1/4" male pipe thread on the other end of the 20-30 to the 1/2" male pipe thread on your black pipe nipple. This adapter would have 1/4" female pipe thread on one end and 1/2" female pipe thread on the other. If you like Dale's suggested hose better, you will need to find fittings for both ends that will let you get from the pipe nipple to the regulator.

Since it's harder for you to go to hardware stores in person to be able to look at things and mix and match what will work, I'm thinking it will be easier if you use the parts for the black pipe that DeAnne recommends in her tut and stay with using a section of T-grade hose to connect to your regulator. It's probably less complicated. Given your list, you'd only need to buy one more fitting to put on the output of your regulator. If you go to

http://www.frantzartglass.com/index....ex&cPath=14_18

the part you want is 118631, the propane nut and barb combo. If you use the fittings DeAnne recommends, you will end up with a barb fitting at the end of the black pipe. Using the propane nut and barb combo does the same at the regulator. You can then cut a section of T-grade hose to length (I use part of the hose I get for my torch - usually have to cut the ends off, anyway), slide a 1/4" hose clamp onto each end of the hose, slide the ends of the hose onto the barbs, and tighten the hose clamps down. As discussed earlier, this is an eminently acceptable way to go that will probably last a while.

I don't want to dissuade you from continuing to try to figure out how to use a hose like Dale's suggestion or those you found if that's what you'd prefer to do. You've certainly done a great job finding on-line sources for things. There's almost every conceivable combination of fittings to change size, change gender, or change thread type - just takes a little bit to figure out what's available and how many/what type of fittings you'll need to get your hose connected successfully. Given that you're willing to research, you might even find a more efficient combination of things than you might otherwise at a hardware store that may or may not have something you'd like in stock.

Linda
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Old 2009-08-18, 11:38am
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I don't know how long your line is going to be, but you may want to look at the building code as for what you can and cannot do. I looked into that a while ago because the propane line for our stove sprung a leak. (Sorry to play safety Nazi here, but at work that's part of my job). If any of your pipe is going under ground you have to have a galvanized steel pipe (and get a licensed plumber to install it).
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Old 2009-08-18, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maren View Post
I don't know how long your line is going to be, but you may want to look at the building code as for what you can and cannot do. I looked into that a while ago because the propane line for our stove sprung a leak. (Sorry to play safety Nazi here, but at work that's part of my job). If any of your pipe is going under ground you have to have a galvanized steel pipe (and get a licensed plumber to install it).
Licensed plumber requirement varies from state to state.... Not all states requite it, some states just require it to be inspected to meet code....

As it is, the flex line will be outside between hard line (steel pipe) and regulator at tank (20 pound BBQ tank) ....

Dale
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Old 2009-08-18, 2:18pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Thanks so much Linda, I will look at what you suggest. I don't mind having to get a new one yearly or whatever untill I can get a copper hookup made.

You know what I needed that would help me understand all this? An illustration! (Like the cool ones that Dale made that showed different set up possibilities.) An illustration that shows the parts and this goes into that and is secured with a hose clamp and this threads onto this via a nut blah blah With dimensions included.

I am unfamiliar with all of these parts and apparatus so other than understanding the obvious about how to screw something onto another something, it's confusing. ( I know when i get it all together and see it in person I'll go OH That's how that works!)
I just realized how a hose barb works (tell me if I'm wrong!) You insert/shove the hose barb into the hose and secure with a circle clamp, yes?
Do you get a 1/2" hose barb to go into a 1/2" hose?( You get the same dimensions that fit together?) 1/4" goes with 1/4", 1/2" goes into 1/2" like that?

***So Linda, If I purchase the 10-30 ( the one that has the 1/4" male threaded pieces on each end) all I'll need to find are two pieces that are pieces that are female threaded on both ends 1/4" going to 1/2" right?
YES? What are those called?

Is there a clear illustration of the pieces and parts to hook everthing together that would make perfect sense to a super newbie like me? That would be so great.

Can't thank you all enough for your help and advise.
Michele
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Last edited by ShellyJo1969; 2009-08-18 at 3:12pm.
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Old 2009-08-18, 3:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
..........If I purchase the 10-30 ( the one that has the 1/4" male threaded pieces on each end) all I'll need to find are two pieces that are pieces that are female threaded on both ends 1/4" going to 1/2" right?
YES? What are those called?

Is there a clear illustration of the pieces and parts to hook everything together that would make perfect sense to a super newbie like me? That would be so great..........

Michele
Reducers....... There are two types ... A "bushing" which has one set of female threads and one set of male threads... A "bell reducer" which has two sets of female threads.... Depends on application...

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/blackfittings.html


Bell Reducer. (can be black iron - galvanized steel- or brass)


Bushing.(can be black iron - galvanized steel- or brass)


Barbed Fitting. (can have male or female threaded ends- most popular is male threads)


Clamps for barbed fittings.. (comes in various sizes to match hose)



Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-08-18 at 3:42pm.
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Old 2009-08-18, 4:07pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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UPDate:

OK, I've been searching for what seems like hours and I've come up with this on www.bigway.com

A 4ft hose with 3/8" female flare swivel on each end part (19-20) and a 1/2" Female thread x 3/8" male flare thread connector (35-90)...

Screw the 3/8" male flare connector into the 3/8" female hose end on each end and then screw the now 1/2" female threads onto the 1/2" black pipe and the 1/2" regulator.
This will work!! Won't it? Let me know if this will work so i can order it.

IF that will work that's what I'm buying. I can shield the hose from weather and uv by making sure it's inside the container (garbage can ) with my propane hose can't I? This would work until I can get a copper pipe made and if I can't I can just replace it once in a while or something.

PS Thanks Dale for the photos.
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Last edited by ShellyJo1969; 2009-08-18 at 4:11pm.
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Old 2009-08-18, 4:46pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
You know what I needed that would help me understand all this? An illustration! (Like the cool ones that Dale made that showed different set up possibilities.) An illustration that shows the parts and this goes into that and is secured with a hose clamp and this threads onto this via a nut blah blah With dimensions included.

Is there a clear illustration of the pieces and parts to hook everthing together that would make perfect sense to a super newbie like me? That would be so great.
Wish my camera weren't kaput, or I'd post pics of my own set up for you. You'll probably go "A-ha!" as soon as you see some of the things I've been trying to describe. Unfortunately, I'm also going out of town, so it would be a while before I could post a diagram.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
I just realized how a hose barb works (tell me if I'm wrong!) You insert/shove the hose barb into the hose and secure with a circle clamp, yes?
Yep, you just shove the hose onto the hose barb and secure it with a hose clamp like the pics Dale posted for you. The second one up from the bottom is easy to find in most plumbing supply places, but either work well. Just remember to slide the hose clamp onto the hose first.....it's hard to get the hose off the barb once you've put it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
Do you get a 1/2" hose barb to go into a 1/2" hose?( You get the same dimensions that fit together?) 1/4" goes with 1/4", 1/2" goes into 1/2" like that?
Good question, as it turns out. One would think it would work that way... But for T-grade hose, I use a 1/4" hose barb with whatever male pipe thread on the other end is most convenient for what I'm doing (ala DeAnne's tut).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
***So Linda, If I purchase the 10-30 ( the one that has the 1/4" male threaded pieces on each end) all I'll need to find are two pieces that are pieces that are female threaded on both ends 1/4" going to 1/2" right?
YES? What are those called?
Almost right. If you get the hose with 1/4" male pipe thread on both ends, I think you'll need two fittings on one end and none on the other. The end which gets attached to your black pipe nipple needs two fittings. One is a bell reducer and the other is a bushing. Dale has posted pictures for you in his most recent thread. In the link to plumbing parts he provided, the closest bell reducer to what you want has 3/4" female pipe threads on one end and 1/4" female pipe threads on the other. You would screw the 20-30 hose into the 1/4" end of the bell reducer. Now you would screw a bushing into the end of the bell reducer that's 3/4" male pipe thread on the outside and 1/2" female pipe thread on the inside. The inside part is what you thread onto the end of the nipple. The 3/4" outer part gets threaded into the inside of the matching end of the bell reducer. If you do this, you should have your 10-30 hose successfully assembled onto the end of the black pipe nipple. The end where you don't need the fittings will simply screw into the body of your propane regulator after you remove the regulator's output fitting, as Dale had recommended in his earlier post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
Can't thank you all enough for your help and advise.
Michele
Your most welcome.

Linda

Last edited by NMLinda; 2009-08-18 at 4:49pm. Reason: edited for correct hose part number
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  #20  
Old 2009-08-18, 4:55pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyJo1969 View Post
Thanks so much Linda, I will look at what you suggest. I don't mind having to get a new one yearly or whatever untill I can get a copper hookup made.
If you decide to go the T-grade hose route, the hose will probably last well over a year, maybe several years, especially if you wrap it (you could probably even use electrical tape if you can't find waterproof pipe wrap tape). Just do a soap check on it every so often and physically inspect it for abrasion, wear, or any other degradation. If you go the propane hose route per one of Dale's earlier posts and the items you've been looking at, you'll want to do the same, since these are also rubberized.

Linda
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Old 2009-08-18, 6:47pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Here's the page with the end piece (35-90) the one with 3/8" x 1/2"
http://bigway.com/CARTgallery8a.htm

Here's the page with the 4ft hose (20-50) 3/8"x3/8"
http://bigway.com/CARTgallery36.htm

This is what I bought so I hope it works fine. I'll leave this here in case anyone else can use it to find parts.

michele
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Last edited by ShellyJo1969; 2009-08-18 at 6:57pm.
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Old 2009-08-18, 7:15pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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What you ordered will work fine attaching to the pipe nipple. To install the other end of the 20-50 hose to your regulator, you'll need to replace the output fitting with something that has a 3/8" male flare fitting on one end and (if I remember Dale's post on this) a 1/4" male pipe thread on the other.

Good luck!
Linda
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