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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them? 63 51.22%
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!! 37 30.08%
Who care? I just want to learn!! 13 10.57%
Huh? Students have rights? Since when? 10 8.13%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:36pm
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I have a question--is carbon monoxide a concern in the ventilation issue?
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  #62  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:42pm
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I may be completely wrong . . . where is Mike when we need him. . . but from what I have read, carbon monoxide doesn't get high enough with what we do, NoX is the biggest concern.
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  #63  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvingBeau View Post
This is definitely not something that I would promote as an end-all/be-all of any kind. Agreed that huge progress and discoveries have been made in regards to exposures and protection measures. Even though it is 10 years old it's a very thorough outline to be used as a jump off point to be followed up and added to..I does cover pretty much everything just not to it's fullest degree.
Another thing that would be great to hand out to students would be the design critera that you (Mike) have outlined in regards to choosing/designing a ventilation system for the home studio and/or double-checking any currently existing setup any student may be using.
Like I said
BTW Mike did you get my email with the question about the blowers I was looking at?
Not yet, but I'm at home now, and it's probably waiting for me at work. I'll get it in the morning.

You can certainly print out anything on my blog (as long as credit is given **GRINNING**) and hand out to students. Pretty much all the technical and safety information is there, so it's fairly complete, but I'm always adding more, so it's a matter of a "snap shot".
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  #64  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:50pm
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RE Carbon Monoxide -- generally speaking, an oxy-fuel gas torch isn't going to generate much in the way of CO UNLESS you run a strong reduction flame (all propane), and then only in fairly small amounts.

HOWEVER, that being said, I always encourage the use of CO detectors in a studio, as it provides a safe guard in case the fresh air supply for the ventilation system becomes blocked and the exhaust system starts backdrafting the furnace/hot water heater.

(sorry for the delay, I was on my way home.... )
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  #65  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:52pm
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Well, not JUST NOx...there are the other combustion byproducts as well, combined with the metals and rare earths that get vaporized in the flame.

NOx has a bad rep because of the respiratory factor, and deservedly so, but it is not the only culprit, especially if fuming is being done. I'm sure that Kimberly can testify to that.
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  #66  
Old 2008-02-20, 6:37pm
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Well, I've read this thread with interest. I've been tempted to comment on this issue before but haven't because in my case the class I took that had poor ventilation was with a very established teacher at a great arts venue. I didn't know at the time being fairly new that the ventilation was not adequate, and spent many hours on the torch there, some with enamels and no masks. There is a class there this summer with a teacher I'm dying to take a class from, but I won't go back until/unless they put in a ventilation system.

I do believe that it is up to each student to do the ground work and find out if the venue has appropriate equipment, and I hope that threads like this will serve to educate those that are new to flameworking. As was stated earlier, rather than some kind of enforcement, if enough students start asking and giving their dollars to the studios that are properly equipped maybe then others will follow.
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  #67  
Old 2008-02-20, 9:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
....... It is a known fact that most females do not like to rock the boat and will avoid a situation that could escalate into a confrontation or other conflict
LOl I just popped back into this discussion to laugh..........
Ummmmmm Oh my goodness have you not read 90 percent of the threads in the woodshed, bathroom etc? Or have you ever seen the drama at any given gathering? Be it glass or other fields of art? I get the feeling these "timid, shy, demure, non boat rocking women" you speak of may have existed in another time and place. Also, I don't think I will let my wife read that statement! I have a feeling she would want to rock the boat on this one!

Mike I am glad you started this conversation but I am disappointed you completely dodged my question. I quoted you directly and asked about a situation your theoretical rules would set up by limiting the lampworking teaching body to those currently teaching. No new teachers would be able to teach and unless you were "well known in your field" you couldn't teach either. You said no, this would not be the case but then you gave no explanation, no exception or any other answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
‘well-qualified’ means people who have taught the same subject before, and are well-known in their field. If the teacher has taught less than 5 classes or is teaching a relatively new technique to him/her, then the teacher must announce this fact prior to taking registration for the class and have written notification in the syllabus information handed out prior to the class.
Your theoretical rules state that the teacher would have to be well qualified and part of being well qualified means you have taught the same subject before. If you have not taught lampworking before, according to your theoretical rules you cannot teach lampworking.....because you have not taught it before. You would start a Mobius strip that would prevent new teachers.

Yes I understand they are theoretical rules, yes I understand you are just throwing it out there to get the discussion started. It is chilling however when someone who would and could move forward with this, sets up what in my humble opinion are short sighted rules and then when it is pointed out, completely ignores it.

Rules, policies and regulations may really help the current situation. Rules, policies and regulations could also lock us into a situation that could stifle, that could be unreasonable and ultimately could be detrimental to the lampworking field. I am all for this discussion, I think it is very worthwhile and very current. I just think we should be cautious and dare I say it... open minded.

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  #68  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:57pm
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Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
I'm curious. I know they have to take a class to become certified, and I am sure that the class teaches them to use PMC effectively, but do you think the class teaches them to be good teachers?? They get more money, but are they better teachers than those that are not certified?? The whole certification thing seems dicey to me.
Kimberly, unfortunately, they don't teach them to be good teachers. Some of those who teach are fabulous and there are a lot out there who don't know enough about what they are doing to be teaching. I'm not certified- I see no reason to be. My Mom is certified and she taught me about 3 years ago. She is also a retired teacher so, she's a natural.

The draw for the certification classes was that you would get a discount on the clay and other supplies. That discount isn't nearly what it was several years ago.

I took my beginning lampworking class at the Bead & Button show. The instructor never talked about ventilation at all. She did cover safety with regard to eye protection and transporting gas.

I left there and wished I would have been shown more of the practical basics such as hooking up the mapp gas tank to the torch head and how to check for leaks. Until I started reading more about it myself, I was all set to go down to my basement and start torching. I had an uneasy feeling about that however and I found this place. I still have not turned on the torch because I won't do it until I know it's completely safe and I'd be covered by my insurance carrier if there were an accident of some sort. I'd hate to lose everything I've worked so hard for over some glass. I do love glass but, not enough to sacrifice my life or my home. My brother is making my hood and trying to get it done for me quickly. Life intrudes- damnit!

Interesting discussion.
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  #69  
Old 2008-02-21, 5:31am
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Just my two cents. As ex-director of a school (and over 100 classes) many NEW students don't know what to expect so in that case I feel that it is up to the school and instructor to insure that safety and quality are there. That being said MANY schools and classroom settings (sepecially at the conventions) are NOT healthy environments. Many impressive ventilating systems do not work as designed or are non-existent. I too, am a bit sensitive to the invisible fumes, so I can attest to many locations not being well ventilated! As far as instructors, even as a director there were some "names" I wouldn't dare approach (out of fear of losing their presence) to ask them to stop using their cell phone etc. (more than one!) I did have a student evaluation form (annon) and was available during every class (actually I TA'd most of them) to insure that everyone had everything that they needed. (and there was always one who wanted MORE than was possibly reasonable, and had a complaint about not enough time, tools, breaks, individual time etc). You can get a sense of the satisfaction level that way, but it ultimately comes down to the school/studio to provide the majority of this. Remember too, many teachers are only using the "space" to teach, and for many it is their first opportunity to check out the school once they have arrived. (I also have had instructors who presented NO prior glass, tool or instructions for their classes, so I had to guess what they'd want! (Yes, I asked!) Enough from me! Susan
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  #70  
Old 2008-02-21, 6:02am
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Otter, I agree with Mike on the previous teaching experience. Actually he replied back to you with:

Quote:
If the teacher has taught less than 5 classes or is teaching a relatively new technique to him/her, then the teacher must announce this fact prior to taking registration for the class and have written notification in the syllabus information handed out prior to the class.
Mike didn't say that they can't or shouldn't teach, just that they should notify the students of that before they signed up. Until someone have taught a specific type of class a few times, they just won't have the flow and experience that is needed to easily get their instructions across to the students. Some never will figure it out, but I think 3 to 6 classes is probably a good range of where most teachers start "getting in the groove".

If someone has a good skill in something, but this is there first or second time teaching, I would still be very interested in the class, but I would come in realizing that the class probably won't go as smoothly as it should.

The teaching a new technique means to me something that the teacher just learned. If they have experience teaching other classes, but not a class in a technique that they are still very experienced with will probably go smooth enough not to be an issue. Though it could be a good marketing idea to say InstructorX is now teaching her TechniqueY for the First time!

Teaching something new that you have little experience in is not only hard, but also you lose a lot of the benefit of the teacher telling about unusual experiences with the technique or hidden gotchas or other behind the scenes stuff that makes a class more lively and informative. I can tell you this from experience teaching computer topics for the the last ten years. I can nail a class on our primary tool and really transfer knowledge since I have worked with it for 14 years and trained people in it off and on for most of that time. When I get sent somewhere to teach about a new product, it takes a couple classes to really start figuring it out and getting the flow of the class right. My company charges a lot more for these that lampworking classes run. Usually the fee is about double what a Loren Stump five day class runs per day plus expenses so I try my best to prepare for a first class in a subject, but it is still rocky sometimes.
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  #71  
Old 2008-02-21, 7:01am
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Thanks Paul, took the words out of my mouth! Does that answer the question for you Otter?
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  #72  
Old 2008-02-21, 7:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Well put . . . that's how I felt . . . that I am just too sensitive coz no one else had any symptoms. I was made to feel that it was my own fault that I couldn't handle the NoX fume coz everyone else was fine!
Many instructors are very uncomfortable if their authority is in any way questioned and they belittle the students in retaliation. The boro safety glasses post was another along this line.

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Originally Posted by sandbarr View Post
I think most of the time students assume and defer to the teacher and have the expectation that the teacher will provide the information that is needed.
After about 3 months of torching, I took a class where I was the most experienced student of the group. For all the rest of the students this was their first experience. The instructor had both the freestanding oxygen tank (nothing securing it) and the propane tank right next to him. And the hoses were scattered so that students would trip over them on the way to the kiln. He proceeded to say that the fire marshall wanted the propane tank outside but he wanted it next to him so he could turn it off quickly. And all the rest of the students were studiously writing this down in their notebooks. I started to say something and was immediately putdown by the instructor. And it wasn't the first thing that he was absolutely right about and there was no other way to do it. There were simple things too -- like don't ever prop your hands or forearms on anything to steady them. And everything was dutifully noted by the students. There was never any other way than his way for doing things. I could write a novel here about how bad both the environment and the teaching was. And I probably would've been classified by him as the disruptive student in your first post because I kept saying, "I think there's a another way". Since I'm not one of those passive, "won't speak up" women

Anyway, Mike, why don't you put together a safety pamphlet and then maybe ISGB could take it on as a project to get it printed and distributed. Students love to take things home and if it became a mission to get a well-written, safety pamphlet into every beginning lampworker's hands then no one is relying upon an instructor to remember the information and then teach it. Instructors can be taught how to skim through the manual with students and have them highlight or star critical information. This information is important enough that it should be in writing and written by someone who knows the details.
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  #73  
Old 2008-02-21, 8:10am
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Originally Posted by Beckah View Post
<snipped>

Anyway, Mike, why don't you put together a safety pamphlet and then maybe ISGB could take it on as a project to get it printed and distributed. Students love to take things home and if it became a mission to get a well-written, safety pamphlet into every beginning lampworker's hands then no one is relying upon an instructor to remember the information and then teach it. Instructors can be taught how to skim through the manual with students and have them highlight or star critical information. This information is important enough that it should be in writing and written by someone who knows the details.
Beckah -- as of the first of this year, the ISGB and I have parted ways, and this is one of the places where we differ in opinion. The idea of a safety pamphlet has been brought to the board many many times and each time it has been rejected mainly due to legal fears. As I wrote earlier, part of their mission is to 'establish best practices' for studio safety, but the current and previous administrations is choosing to place more emphasis on making purty beads than it is on keeping students alive and breathing.

Vince Henley, Stan Wolfersberger, myself and others have tried to get the organization to take studio safety seriously, but they are afraid of the legal implications. I don't know why that it -- it seems to me that they should be afraid of what would happen if someone dies because of inaction on their part, but what do I know? Maybe they think they can't get sued for gross negligence for ignoring that safety is part of their mandate but not doing anything to move forward a simple set of safe studio standards.

So, basically, to hell with them. I've taken a good part of that burden upon myself and that's the reason I started my blog (link in my sig line) and why I will continue to discuss issues like this. If the International Society of Glass Beadmakers is going to ignore studio and student safety, so be it. I won't.
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  #74  
Old 2008-02-21, 8:16am
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And I'll also point out for the record that Pam Dugger, President of the ISGB is a member here on LE. I'm sure she's read what has been said here, and passed it on to the other members of the board. You will note that NOT ONE person who can represent the ISGB has made any statement whatsoever on this issue.

What does that tell you about their committment to student safety?
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  #75  
Old 2008-02-21, 8:20am
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I have been reading Mike's website and feel there is a veritable wealth of information there, and I think this discussion is a good one. I think the Bill of Rights is well thought out to a certain degree. Here are the rules as have been listed:

The student shall have:

a clean and safe working environment;

a well-qualified teaching instructor and assistants;

class time with the teacher and assistants free from distractions;

the right to request a full and immediate refund if any of the above rights are infringed upon.


To me these are givens in any classroom setting.

I think where many of us were lost was with the definition of "well-qualified teacher." If this bill of rights is only in reference to beginning glass classes, then I can pretty much agree. I part ways if the same expectation is placed on qualifications of instructors who are teaching specific techniques.

Beginning classes have students who, for the most part, have never been exposed to the lampworking world and its hazards. I believe the standards on the ISGB website http://www.isgb.org/education/standards.shtml are excellent. Unfortunately, not every beginning student finds them before their first class. I believe instructors of beginning classes have a great responsibility to protect their students and instruct their students on the special requirements of lampworking.

However, once you leave the beginning class situation and move to the technique-specific classes, then I believe the obligation leans more toward the student. The student who is no longer a beginner has enough knowledge to ascertain whether the environment the class is being taught in meets their own expectations and needs. (ask the studio owner specific questions regarding ventilation, etc. Ask the instructor.) If it doesn't, then don't sign up for the class. There are people who I would take a class from even if it was taught in unacceptable conditions. I take on the responsibility of the environment I am in as I have enough knowledge to make the determination for myself.

Regarding the quote of Section 1.3.2 of the Code of Regulations, – To promote educational initiatives on historical and contemporary techniques and trends, including establishing best practices for education and studio safety - since the person who quoted this is obviously unaware of what is currently going on, I will only say that the assumption that nothing is being done and that ISGB has its collective head in the sand is wrong.

With regard to the quotation from the registration book regarding the conditions at Gathering classes, the allegation that it was a CYA remark is wrong, and as I was one of those responsible for having it put in the book, I do know why it was done. The reason is plain and simple and anyone who states otherwise is wrong. The reason was to advise those who were contemplating taking a class that unfortunately the venue, as hard as we try, is not always ideal. People should be informed of this and although I would think any experienced lampworker would understand the limitations that a class in this type of venue would be faced with, it was felt that this warning should be written for those who have never attended a Gathering class. We try very hard to give the best classroom environment we can, but things are not always perfect.
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  #76  
Old 2008-02-21, 8:42am
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Beckah, Each year at the Gathering ISGB presents a booklet (perhaps now a CD) with informational handouts for students to each participant in the Instructors Seminar. I know when I started the Instructors Guide, there were lots of pertinent informational handouts for students, including a copy of Stan Wolfersberger's complete document which is about 16 pages long that covered many, many hazards of lampworking. Schermo took over the Instructors Seminar after that and, though I haven't seen the more recent additions to the Guide, I think I know Schermo well enough to have confidence that she added even more informational handouts. Each time I teach I print out the documents that are in the guide to use as handouts to my students, including the 16-page Stan Wolfersberger document, because I don't think anyone has done it better to date. Vince Henley is currently a contributor to The Glass Bead and writes a safety article for each issue.
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  #77  
Old 2008-02-21, 8:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
<snipped>

Regarding the quote of Section 1.3.2 of the Code of Regulations, – To promote educational initiatives on historical and contemporary techniques and trends, including establishing best practices for education and studio safety - since the person who quoted this is obviously unaware of what is currently going on, I will only say that the assumption that nothing is being done and that ISGB has its collective head in the sand is wrong.
Well Pam, since you brought it up, why not tell the glassworking public what the ISGB is currently doing so that you can dispel the notion that the organization isn't doing anything. Just saying that you are doing something isn't going to cut it, you have to be doing it.

Quote:
With regard to the quotation from the registration book regarding the conditions at Gathering classes, the allegation that it was a CYA remark is wrong, and as I was one of those responsible for having it put in the book, I do know why it was done. The reason is plain and simple and anyone who states otherwise is wrong. The reason was to advise those who were contemplating taking a class that unfortunately the venue, as hard as we try, is not always ideal. People should be informed of this and although I would think any experienced lampworker would understand the limitations that a class in this type of venue would be faced with, it was felt that this warning should be written for those who have never attended a Gathering class.
Oh, I have to cry foul on this Pam. It is in there because of the known problem with not being able to control the ventilation and you HAVE to inform attendees that they attend at their own risk. This is basic legalese to cover the organization's collective butts.

You said it right here:
Quote:
The reason was to advise those who were contemplating taking a class that unfortunately the venue, as hard as we try, is not always ideal. People should be informed of this and although I would think any experienced lampworker would understand the limitations that a class in this type of venue would be faced with, it was felt that this warning should be written for those who have never attended a Gathering class.
This is a required legal statement. And it very definately *IS* CYA. Because if you don't make the statement, and someone has a health issue, the organization is liable. You are covering your butts.

There's nothing wrong with doing that. But at least be honest with us about that, OK?
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  #78  
Old 2008-02-21, 9:04am
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Quote:
If it doesn't, then don't sign up for the class. There are people who I would take a class from even if it was taught in unacceptable conditions. I take on the responsibility of the environment I am in as I have enough knowledge to make the determination for myself.
Why would you (or anyone for that matter) put your health and safety at risk just for the sake of taking a class from xyz instructor?

I do not agree with you that the student has the sole responsibility to inquire about the safety of a facility where a class is being taught. Absolutely, positively do not agree.

I believe that there should be a basic assumption that the conditions of a teaching studio are going to be safe for the student to learn in. It should be free of any risk (outside of the known risks of hot glass and open flames), regardless of the level of the class.

Just because someone is taking an advanced class does not excuse the studio or the teacher from providing a safe environment for the student. That's an absolutely ridiculous statement to make, Pam!!

I cannot understand why any teacher would choose to teach in an unsafe studio environment. From your own experience Pam, tell us why it is done. Why can't the teacher say to the studio owner: I won't teach here until you either install or upgrade your ventilation to acceptable levels. I won't teach here until you move your propane outside. I won't teach here until you provide or ensure that the students provide proper eyewear. The teachers have the power to enforce these things -- why won't they use it?
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:17am
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I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it COULD be a 'reason' for why teachers don't say things like 'I won't teach here blah blah blah until blah blah blah', but here is my take on it:

The studio is paying us (teachers). I consider myself an independent contractor supplying a service, BUT my conscience is still telling me that the studio (by way of the students) IS my employer. Would you go in for a job interview with a list of demands and ultimatums? I know it isn't exactly the same thing, but I personally still have that same feeling of 'they are my boss' while I am there.

This does NOT take any responsibility off of me because ultimately I am in control of my own decisions over whether to work in a particular studio or not. Just as a student is in control of whether they want to learn there or not.

I do NOT see myself in the future approaching a studio without knowing in advance what it was like. I will scout out places that I already know are safe and make students happy. If I am approached by a studio I don't know, I will ask more pointed questions, but I am not going to dangle my teaching there like a carrot on a stick...I just wouldn't go. It is not in me to tell a studio to shape up or no way...but it is in me to choose not to go there.

I would certainly hope that as the scope of this 'enlightenment' spreads...studios will voluntarily improve their environments and policies to accommodate discerning teachers and students. It is up to the teachers not to teach in unsafe studios, and students not to sign up for classes in unsafe studios and studio owners to invest the money they need to invest to bring their spaces up to par.

It needs to be voluntary. Voluntary action separates the ones who care from the ones who are being forced. We all want to be in studios and with teachers who CARE...not ones who are being bent over Big Brother's knee.

~~Mary
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:28am
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With regard to the quotation from the registration book regarding the conditions at Gathering classes. The reason is plain and simple and anyone who states otherwise is wrong. The reason was to advise those who were contemplating taking a class that unfortunately the venue, as hard as we try, is not always ideal. People should be informed of this and although I would think any experienced lampworker would understand the limitations that a class in this type of venue would be faced with, it was felt that this warning should be written for those who have never attended a Gathering class. We try very hard to give the best classroom environment we can, but things are not always perfect.
Pam - thank you for posting in this thread. Just to clarify my position - this will be my first Gathering and tho I do completely understand the limitation of a convention center, I would have liked to be assured that the ventilation issue is being addressed. The "disclaimer" in the booklet didn't do that. I am glad I posted it here for now I understand that convention centers and hotels do have ways to boost the air flow to help with the ventilation, not the best but at least something is changing the air out. I do want to take Vittorio's workshop!

My quoting the booklet was not meant to be an attack on the ISGB.
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Last edited by Hayley; 2008-02-21 at 10:32am. Reason: can't spel
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  #81  
Old 2008-02-21, 10:35am
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WOO HOO MARY!!!!!!!!!!!! <applauds>
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  #82  
Old 2008-02-21, 10:45am
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I do NOT see myself in the future approaching a studio without knowing in advance what it was like. I will scout out places that I already know are safe and make students happy. If I am approached by a studio I don't know, I will ask more pointed questions, but I am not going to dangle my teaching there like a carrot on a stick...I just wouldn't go. It is not in me to tell a studio to shape up or no way...but it is in me to choose not to go there.

I would certainly hope that as the scope of this 'enlightenment' spreads...studios will voluntarily improve their environments and policies to accommodate discerning teachers and students. It is up to the teachers not to teach in unsafe studios, and students not to sign up for classes in unsafe studios and studio owners to invest the money they need to invest to bring their spaces up to par.

It needs to be voluntary. Voluntary action separates the ones who care from the ones who are being forced. We all want to be in studios and with teachers who CARE...not ones who are being bent over Big Brother's knee.

~~Mary
Thank you Mary - I think by your doing that, it's the first step into the right direction for all of us! Let's just hope others will do the same.
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:45am
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Don't cheer too loudly, Mike. I still think isgb isn't responsible for certifying teachers or policing every glass studio on the planet. If they want to provide voluntary information for people who care to read it...that kick's butt and I hope everybody does care to read it...but I don't need them signing off on my teaching abilities and I'm pretty sure studios don't want them sticking their noses into their spaces either.

Word of mouth is a powerful thing. Especially in this day and age.

~~Mary
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:48am
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Thank you Hayley. Talk is easy though...and I only have to walk the walk once a year.

I guess I'm fired up about it because I never realized what a big problem it was for people. I feel really bad about that. I feel partly responsible for it too. Not repeating the same poor choice in the future is the least I can do.

Hugs.
~~Mary
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Old 2008-02-21, 11:27am
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Pam - thank you for posting in this thread. Just to clarify my position - this will be my first Gathering and tho I do completely understand the limitation of a convention center, I would have liked to be assured that the ventilation issue is being addressed. The "disclaimer" in the booklet didn't do that. I am glad I posted it here for now I understand that convention centers and hotels do have ways to boost the air flow to help with the ventilation, not the best but at least something is changing the air out. I do want to take Vittorio's workshop!

My quoting the booklet was not meant to be an attack on the ISGB.
Hayley, I never thought it was an attack from you. Yes, most convention centers have ways of doubling or tripling their air exchange in a room. Another consideration that we have taken in the last few years is to have extremely large convention center type rooms to house the four torch classes, with fresh air coming in and fans situated where necessary. We strive to do our best, and Lisa St. Martin is very, very good, but it is not always optimum conditions, thus the warning. I have found that most people do not detect a problem with the setup we use, however you never know how any one person is going to react in any given circumstance.

As far as someone assuring you that the ventilation is addressed to the specifications necessary to address your concerns, I don't believe anyone can do that. Your sensitivity may require a much greater exchange of air that we can achieve. I can't and won't assume I know what you need to feel safe. I can tell you that as far as I know we have not had any complaints since we went to the larger convention size room with the setup as we now do it.
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Old 2008-02-21, 11:50am
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Hayley, I never thought it was an attack from you. Yes, most convention centers have ways of doubling or tripling their air exchange in a room. Another consideration that we have taken in the last few years is to have extremely large convention center type rooms to house the four torch classes, with fresh air coming in and fans situated where necessary. We strive to do our best, and Lisa St. Martin is very, very good, but it is not always optimum conditions, thus the warning. I have found that most people do not detect a problem with the setup we use, however you never know how any one person is going to react in any given circumstance.

As far as someone assuring you that the ventilation is addressed to the specifications necessary to address your concerns, I don't believe anyone can do that. Your sensitivity may require a much greater exchange of air that we can achieve. I can't and won't assume I know what you need to feel safe. I can tell you that as far as I know we have not had any complaints since we went to the larger convention size room with the setup as we now do it.
Thank you for the explanation. You have already given me the assurance I need! And no, I never expect anyone to address anything to the specifications of my needs!
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  #87  
Old 2008-02-21, 12:13pm
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Paul,
No Mike didn't actually answer me, he just quoted from his original posts as you quoted from his original post also. The funny thing is in both of your posts, you and Mike left out Mike's words that I have issue with. Mike's words are:

‘well-qualified’ means people who have taught the same subject before, and are well-known in their field.

It is short sighted and precludes anyone who has not taught lampworking before.

Also the term "well-known in their field". Who is the arbitrating body on this subjective definition?

Arrow Springs is a well established supplier, they have instructors who I would subjectively call "well-known in their field" yet here we are in a thread discussing hazardous conditions in the classes these same "well-known" instructors teach.

I agree with the fact that experience is a good place to start with a teacher. I have taken classes in other fields where an inexperienced teacher has done a great deal of harm to new students. This can happen in all forms of study.

I have been self taught up to last year. Up until Glass Stock last year I had never had a class, never watched a video or read a book about lampworking. I read this forum and asked a lot of questions and did a lot of experimentation and research. I feel it is my responsibility to educate myself about the issues involved with whatever I want to be involved in. As far as safety, there are volumes of information on lampworking safety.

In the fields I have taught I have been notorious as a "safety nazi". I always will be. I have a friend who lampworks who hates to see me because he knows he does not have adequate ventilation and I call him on it every chance I get. it is not an issue to play around with.

To step back and take a look at where we are collectively as a group of artists, teachers, students and merchants is a good thing. In my humble opinion you just have to be very careful when you start making sweeping generalizations, assumptions and proposing short sighted, overly constricting regulations that we may not be able to live with and continue to grow in a progressive manor.

Otter
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  #88  
Old 2008-02-21, 12:37pm
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MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
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Otter, please read the very next sentence!!!

Quote:
If the teacher has taught less than 5 classes or is teaching a relatively new technique to him/her, then the teacher must announce this fact prior to taking registration for the class and have written notification in the syllabus information handed out prior to the class.
All that I'm saying here is that it is incumbent on the teacher to inform the student(s) that he/she has not taught very many classes or is teaching a new technique. Nowhere does it say that they cannot teach, they just have to inform the students, that's all.

I don't know where this "can't teach if you haven't taught before" is coming from, but its not coming from me. You are putting meaning into my words that is simply not there. Please step back and look at it again.
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  #89  
Old 2008-02-21, 1:37pm
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I think the direction this thread had gone in so many ways is very much needed in the lampworking community for several reasons beyond the obvious ones. I have seen so many times on both sides of the counter (so to speak) you can say something 10 times over and there is a chance that it will get thru eventually.

I had a student show up for a class I had been instructing at a local art school....after the orientation/2hr demo/handout/safety/ventilation discussion,etc... one student mentioned she had no idea that fire or a torch was involved and THAT was NOT what she had signed up for....needless to say she had not even given thought into the class description or much less had read it to begin with or she would of know there was "fire" involved.

I spent nearly 7 yrs on the faculty there and had approached the various directors,etc.. addressing the issues of ventilation hoods and exhaust.The bottom line was drawn when I had withdrawn from future class offerings until I had constructed a professional studio theat would easily accommodate a group of 10+ students as the result of not having the proper studio set up beyond not having dedicated space nor equipment.

Every class I have instructed I have gone over the associated hazards,ventilation and safety issues with students and there seems to be a small percentage of those who really retain the information let alone find much interest in the topics.....none the less I have put forth the effort to educate the students.

I have since had an experiance during a visit to another studio and low and behold once I set up my torch and turned it one ~every single detector and fire alarm went off. I had given the studio owner information to the specs of the fume hoods,ventilation fans,etc.. only to find "trimmed" corners and cost "reduction" for the ventilation equipment. This had a negative impact on my experiance there and I had stressed the importance of addressing the issues before hosting another class.

My experiance of the situations above..........KEEP TALKING PEOPLE WILL EVENTUALLY LISTEN!!!



AS for the rights of the students as well as the classes offered,etc... I believe there is a great deal of "do as I do" but dont make it and sell it after my class situations happening at a higher rate as time goes on.....aside from that the sky is the limit when pricing classes comes into play and I believe both of the factors takes from the degrees of actual LEARNING for the students and gives way to high dollars for "tricks' or "tips" or "hey look you can be XXXXX for $499.00".......I see beginning bead classes for $250-$400 and in the end the student makes BEGINNING BEADS! ~One instructor actually posted her beads that looked just like hundreds of my beginning students beads the only difference between the students and the instructor there~ $250.00. On the other hand one of the students in my last class offered mentioned she spent $375.00 on an intro class and the instructor said ZIP about ventilation or safety......only "How to make what I make" and for the low low price of $399.99 or whatever.

I think what needs to be addressed beyond the students rights here Mike is there definitely needs to be guidelines or standards set for the various instructors to the degree of what is taught in class and fair pricing for the students that turn out.......

One student quote "yeah I received lunch both days that I could of bought myself but apparently I paid the studio $40.00 to eat each day because it was calculated into the class fee"
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  #90  
Old 2008-02-21, 1:43pm
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William, I'm brave, but not THAT brave...you think I started a firestorm with this thread...LOL, I'm so not going there...
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