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  #61  
Old 2009-08-10, 11:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Folly Glassworks View Post
Can you speak more about how and where to put the rivets in? Do they allow you to create a more pointed and low flame?
The rivets go in the holes on the head of the torch. You only need two.
You'll never get a pointed flame on a HH. They have a wonderful bushy flame with radiant that is perfect for highly detailed work.
The only thing I can't do on my HH are things like insects where the flame has to be pin point and focused.
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  #62  
Old 2009-08-10, 11:19am
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If you're experiencing freezing with one pound cannisters, try the squat camping tanks instead of the tall slender ones from the hardware store.
You can get them at Target or any other similar retailer in the camping equipment area.
I used these for years and never had an issue.
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  #63  
Old 2009-08-10, 11:25am
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I'm so very sorry if my posts on this thread have not been perceived as kind. I tend to think that taking the time to tell someone that they are behaving wrecklessly is in and of itself an act of kindness. Please don't blow yourself up. Please don't hurt your neighbors.
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  #64  
Old 2009-08-10, 11:54am
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I did this and was informed they did not do that anymore.
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  #65  
Old 2009-08-10, 11:59am
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[quote=Fine Folly Glassworks;2614971]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
To add more fuel to fire so to speak......

Thank you SO much for all this info.

We new lampworkers starting out on HH torches really need expertise like yours, and the kindness you show in providing it.

It is a lot of work to collect info like you provide, and it comes in pieces here and there with big gaps. There doesn't seem to be a central place to get it all, so you are really providing a wonderful service to others.
Yes there is.... Art Glass Answers.........

Dale
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  #66  
Old 2009-08-10, 12:52pm
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Okay, Kimberly, next time you can be the good cop and I'll play bad cop. I was going to post as you did (okay, not quite as good, but about the same things) when I saw your post come up. So, next time I will go first!

I think we all have to realize that people make choices. They are allowed to make those choices, and as long as they are informed choices, I don't honestly care, but I think it is extremely important that it is made clear just how dangerous some of these choices are. Thank you for doing that.
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  #67  
Old 2009-08-10, 1:01pm
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Well, I knew I'd probably get into trouble for being the bad cop.

I agree that making an informed choice is the key.
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  #68  
Old 2009-08-12, 8:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Folly Glassworks View Post
It might be better to not assume that people are making a choice to do bad things and live dangerously - only operating on the best info they could find to date. That's surely one reason people come to a Blog like this.

I would encourage you to present your concerns/wisdom/knowledge from this angle so all people can learn from your input. Thank you (all) for the points you make and the info you provide. It's clear that many of you have so much to offer.
My first reply to you was not unkind. My responses to questions are generally more kind than my other responses to you, however. But, I'm sure that is because of how I perceived your response to me.

Since you are only operating on the best info you can find to date, I would encourage you the next time someone points out a serious safety issue with your set-up that you look more into it instead of dismissing it with a trite "safety is not the issue" and a list of reasons why you knew you were fine and then the "thank you for your concern." That kind of reply gives the impression that you have made your choice, are convinced that you are safe, and are not terribly interested in changing anything.

When I first saw your photo, it looked as if you were someone who had done some homework. Your studio appears neat and orderly and you have a ventilation hood instead of the typical boxfan in the window many beginners who have not researched things out tend to have. I also see two pairs of protective eyewear in the photo. Sure, you have a crock pot to cool your work, but not everyone garage anneals or has a kiln and lots of people use that kind of arrangement. Your photo gives the very definite impression that you did some research into setting your studio up.

There are several threads on the (un)safety of having propane indoors. It has been discussed at length. If you had researched enough to know what type of ventilation was appropriate and to know that protective eyewear is a must, then it would be reasonable to expect that you also researched other aspects of your set-up, including how to fuel your torch and how to safely use and store it. Afterall, the Hot Head does not come with instructions on how to hook one up to a bulk tank, does it? Mine didn't. Maybe something has changed, but I was unaware. It would stand to reason that you found that information somewhere and since you are on here in the torch section, it's pretty reasonable to expect that you found that information either here or on one of the other glass forums.

Many disussions on these boards involving the use of bulk propane with a Hot Head also have posts denouncing the practice and warning against using it indoors. Maybe not all threads, but many - enough that you should have seen something about it somewhere.

I mean, surely at some point you asked yourself, "Is it safe to have this big container of explosive fuel sitting next to me while I'm running an open flame?"

I'm sorry if I assumed too much about you, thinking that you had done a lot of research into your set-up and had made an informed choice in running your Hot Head with a bulk tank and keeping that tank right next to you.

I may come across as stern, but it is because keeping a propane tank next to you while you are torching is dangerous and you could wind up dead, or worse - guilty of killing other people by an explosion they had nothing to do with. It's a serious matter and I would hate for that to happen to you.
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  #69  
Old 2009-08-13, 10:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
Long hoses and connections are available commercially and through RV and camping supplies the come in lengths up to 20 feet, so "a short hose is all I could find" argument is not a valid one.... Glass suppliers seem to think short hoses are all you need, they are wrong and are not doing you, or industry any favors.... You need to go outside the box.....
(not meaning to derail the thread too much)

I am planning on having a reputable hose manufacturer make up a number of hoses, both armored (stainless braid on the outside of the hose) and non-armored. Since the cost does go up based upon the length of the hose, what length of hoses would people like to see? Is 12' too short? Is 20' too long?

(Maybe I should make this a poll?)

Malcolm
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  #70  
Old 2009-08-13, 1:42pm
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Nonarmored hoses are already available.....

Check out MR HEATER site.....They have lengths up to 12 feet available....

http://www.mrheater.com/ProductFamily.aspx?catid=58

Or check McMaster.....

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/3331/=36acnc

Go to page 3331...

12-ft. Hose # 7976A34 and 24-ft. Hose # 7976A35 ...

Complete 12 foot hose with "disposable connector" ends... # 7976A24

Dale
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  #71  
Old 2009-08-13, 1:50pm
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All other issues aside, I find it funny that people are worrying about a $12-20 difference in price on these torches. A Hot Head is cheap!
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  #72  
Old 2009-08-13, 1:55pm
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20 feet would be good.
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  #73  
Old 2009-08-13, 7:26pm
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I think "sufficiently long enough so that the tank can be kept outside and away from the user" would be a good length if you were to do such a thing.
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  #74  
Old 2009-08-13, 7:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnimelf View Post
All other issues aside, I find it funny that people are worrying about a $12-20 difference in price on these torches. A Hot Head is cheap!
It's a couple of pounds of glass.........

Dale
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  #75  
Old 2009-08-13, 9:27pm
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Gee Malcolm, if you get 20' long hoses, I'd love one! I would have to run my hose through the bathroom window to keep the tank outside with the one I have - the 12' one - which I thought was the longest one currently available.

This sounds pretty cool...

De
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  #76  
Old 2009-08-23, 7:54pm
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De, my propane man says you start losing pressure after 10 feet. So I have a 10 ft hose. I rather waited 3 weeks for their connectors to arrive than go with a 4 ft hose.

We cook on propane (that's normal here) so we know our propane supplier (including the rest of their family - it's a small town).
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HotHead on bulk propane and a Glasshive kiln
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  #77  
Old 2009-08-28, 8:18am
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Hi, I bought a mag torch at a Menards in Minnesota, I don't know the number on the torch but I bought mine for $13.95 !! It said on the package that it would work with either mapp pro/ propane. It looked just like a Hot head. I've been making beads with this torch for well over 3 months and it works beautifully!!! I had a hot head torch when I first started out and it was shooting flames, and acting stupid after I had only used it for a couple of weeks. I bought an extra one of these mag torches to keep as a spare and I hooked that up one day and had all sorts of problems with it, I couldn't get a decent flame with it, just a solid turquoise flame. I returned it to the store and they exchanged it. Sometimes you don't get what you pay for, sometimes you do. The beads I've made with the mag torch I've had no problems with them cracking, no problems with color and I've even been able to pop some fairly decent color with gaffer chalcedony 109. So go for it !! happy torching!
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  #78  
Old 2009-12-10, 6:54pm
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So whats the flippin consensus? Between the tangent of the propane in the house thing, and the rivets on the HH, no one has ever said for sure if the Mag is the same as a HH, or did I miss something?

And Dave, was it a, b, or d?
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  #79  
Old 2009-12-10, 7:27pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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Hi,

I believe the answer is in post #29 on page 1.
It seems that the answer is no.

Excerpt: "I had a chance to talk to Cindy Jenkins at the ISGB Gathering, where I asked her about the design of the Hot Head torch. She told me of how she went to the company that was already making a generic torch (as Dale pointed out above), and worked with them to modify the ports and jets. Her modifications were needed to get the proper flame chemistry needed to cleanly melt glass."

P.S. This assumes that the torch manufacturer did not incorporate the changes into their original design. The fact that they sell two versions is not definitive evidence either that they are not the same torch or that they are the same torch sold at two different price points.

Last edited by De Anza Art Glass Club; 2009-12-10 at 7:35pm.
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  #80  
Old 2009-12-10, 8:10pm
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People can argue the point any way they want, personally if I have to replace my HH I will go with the "generic" MAG torch...... Quite frankly until Cindy Jenkins come online and states specifically she redesigned the MAG torch to her specifications, I have to believe it is all hype to justify the high prices of a inexpensive product....

Dale
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  #81  
Old 2009-12-10, 8:46pm
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De, You can get answers on the frit Happens forum...in the UK they all use regulators and arrestors with their HH torches. Tuffnells sells the kits for HH and you can look at it. Their terminology is a little hard to figure out.

Let us know what you find out. I have seen no complaints on using the HH with regulator and arrestor from that forum..I will go and do a little more research for you too.

Hugs
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  #82  
Old 2009-12-10, 9:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
People can argue the point any way they want, personally if I have to replace my HH I will go with the "generic" MAG torch...... Quite frankly until Cindy Jenkins come online and states specifically she redesigned the MAG torch to her specifications, I have to believe it is all hype to justify the high prices of a inexpensive product....

Dale
Or, they took Cindy's design and are now using it for their generic torch as well as the HH. I imagine it might be that as these would have been improvements to their product with probably no real need of having two made differently.
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  #83  
Old 2009-12-10, 9:46pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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OK, I've looked through the Frit-Happens ! forum. Thanks for that lead.

I'm just trying to find information and answer questions, I'm not really a beader myself. (I supervise the club, so I'm supposed to be watching everyone for safety reasons, so can't participate myself.)

Before looking at that forum, I was not opposed to the idea of using a flashback arrestor. It is just a check (one way) valve. (Well, I couldn't really verify that because I couldn't get one apart to look at it without applying excessive force, but I blew through both ends and got the expected results.) I'm still not opposed. My opinion is that if people want to use them it is a good idea and the easiest way would be to purchase a fuel flashback arrestor with barbed ends. I'd install it closer to the torch than to the tank by cutting the bulk hose, inserting the flashback arrestor, and securing with hose clamps. Then, of course, perform a leak test with a soapy solution.

I looked at the regulators they recommend. I'm not surprised that they have trouble lighting their torches. The most common one sold has a maximum output of 56 psig. I'm being negligent by not providing a source, but I've read on the forum that the Hot Head is designed for pressures close to 100 psig. I agree with the opinion I have read that regulators are not necessary for that reason. Tuffnells did also sell an industrial propane regulator which is much more expensive. I have seen them on the Airgas site for over $100. That regulator would be better, if someone decided that a regulator was desirable, because the maximum set pressure is about 150 psig. In the US, it would be easiest to use an acetylene regulator because similar design propane regulators I have seen only go to 50 psig on the outlet.

Those are some current opinions, but I haven't finished making up my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS View Post
De, You can get answers on the frit Happens forum...in the UK they all use regulators and arrestors with thier HH torches. Tuffnells sells the kits for HH and you can look at it. Their terminology is a little hard to figure out.

Let us know what you find out. I have seen no complaints on using the HH with regulator and arrestor from that forum..I will go and do a little more research for you too.

Hugs

Last edited by De Anza Art Glass Club; 2009-12-10 at 10:25pm.
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  #84  
Old 2009-12-10, 10:22pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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What a great science project. Supposedly the difference between a Hot Head and a normal brazing torch is the amount of air it consumes. Most brazing torches I have seen have air ports just above the gas valve and also have vanes in the head to swirl the mixture. The Hot Head has air ports located at the end of the offset pipe. The operation of both is similar: air is entrained in the stream of gas that exits at high velocity from a small hole. However, the gas mixture of the cutting/brazing torch travels down a long nozzle before it gets to the diffusion head while the diffusion head for the Hot Head is just after the air inlets. Presumably, the purpose of this is so that the flame for the cutting/brazing torch is more focused.

Anyway, if the torch redesigned to a Hot Head takes in more air, the flame should be different, so I should be able to measure the flame temperature and/or temperature profile of an original design torch and a Hot Head and see a difference if, in fact, they are different. Unfortunately, I only have a 2000F pyrometer right now, but I'll look around and see if an appropriate instrument is available. Another option would be to get a MAG torch and compare the air inlet port size and oriface size with the Hot Head dimensions.

Who knows which one I'll get to first, but if there is a real interest, I'll put that on my "to do" list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mini View Post
Or, they took Cindy's design and are now using it for their generic torch as well as the HH. I imagine it might be that as these would have been improvements to their product with probably no real need of having two made differently.

Last edited by De Anza Art Glass Club; 2009-12-10 at 11:22pm.
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  #85  
Old 2009-12-10, 11:49pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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The MAG torch (model MT245C) is currently listed at $6.39 at AutoZone. It is $22.99 at Amazon.
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  #86  
Old 2009-12-11, 4:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Anza Art Glass Club View Post
The MAG torch (model MT245C) is currently listed at $6.39 at AutoZone. It is $22.99 at Amazon.
It must be based on where you live. It comes up $21.99 for me.
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  #87  
Old 2009-12-11, 6:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS View Post
De, You can get answers on the frit Happens forum...in the UK they all use regulators and arrestors with thier HH torches. Tuffnells sells the kits for HH and you can look at it. Their terminology is a little hard to figure out.

Let us know what you find out. I have seen no complaints on using the HH with regulator and arrestor from that forum..I will go and do a little more research for you too.

Hugs

What is the specific benefit of using a Regulator & Arrestor on the Hothead please?
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  #88  
Old 2009-12-11, 6:40am
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I didn't do it! Lol
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Old 2009-12-11, 8:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Folly Glassworks View Post
What is the specific benefit of using a Regulator & Arrestor on the Hothead please?
There is no benefit for using a flashback arrestor on a hothead, its not required and not necessary, the torch design makes it impossible (or nearly so) for the flame to flash back into hose...

As for regulator, the jury is still out.... The HH or MAG torch is designed to operate at full tank pressures (120psi at about 70 f.) .... Adding a regulator may cause a more stable flame, but regulator has to operate in the range of 60-70 psi minimum to allows torch to burn effectively...

Any one interestes in high pressure regulators, and LONG hoses may want to look here...

For regulator...
http://www.flameengineering.com/Regulators.html

For cylinder & hose connectors...
http://www.flameengineering.com/Cyli...onnectors.html

Hoses...
http://www.flameengineering.com/Hose.html

And by the time you are done its cheaper to just upgrade to a fuel/oxygen torch....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-12-11 at 9:18am.
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Old 2009-12-11, 10:14am
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Location: buenos aires.
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Originally Posted by De Anza Art Glass Club View Post
What a great science project. Supposedly the difference between a Hot Head and a normal brazing torch is the amount of air it consumes. Most brazing torches I have seen have air ports just above the gas valve and also have vanes in the head to swirl the mixture. The Hot Head has air ports located at the end of the offset pipe. The operation of both is similar: air is entrained in the stream of gas that exits at high velocity from a small hole. However, the gas mixture of the cutting/brazing torch travels down a long nozzle before it gets to the diffusion head while the diffusion head for the Hot Head is just after the air inlets. Presumably, the purpose of this is so that the flame for the cutting/brazing torch is more focused.

Anyway, if the torch redesigned to a Hot Head takes in more air, the flame should be different, so I should be able to measure the flame temperature and/or temperature profile of an original design torch and a Hot Head and see a difference if, in fact, they are different. Unfortunately, I only have a 2000F pyrometer right now, but I'll look around and see if an appropriate instrument is available. Another option would be to get a MAG torch and compare the air inlet port size and oriface size with the Hot Head dimensions.

Who knows which one I'll get to first, but if there is a real interest, I'll put that on my "to do" list.
I don't know as I've never even seen a HH working live, in person. So I don't know but, Can/Should you not be able to see a difference in the torches?

Mag also has a pencil point torch....

I guess for our* experiment is an original HH, a new HH and the MT245C. I believe that's the one closest to the HH.





*And when I say I say "our" I really mean "your". LOL!!!
We get the original HH down here but that really is expensive for the locals & the MAPP is a budget killer. It's all imported.
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