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  #31  
Old 2008-06-05, 10:00pm
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Hayley Hayley is offline
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Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Hey Haley,
It was the Knight Bullet burner I questioned.
I can see how these figure could be correct if the measurement was based upon the largest volume of air that could pass through the torch with the valves set wide open. As far as usable flame they would be way off.
Sorry Trey . . . fixed my post! ThX!
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  #32  
Old 2008-06-05, 10:33pm
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Originally Posted by Tanner Studios View Post
Here is the problem with these numbers. With out an unbiased performance model we're comparing Apples to Oranges. Example, take a Phantom, Knight Bullet and the Hellcat. These torches would be in the same class. Just by looking at the numbers one can not gleam any information with out knowing what was produced at the other end of the torch.

That is why we need to know what BTU's are being produced with the CFH.

In order to get an accurate test the temperature of the flames must be measured first ( Accurately ). So that a standard for each class of torches can be determined. Then with all of the torches ( within their class ) set so their reproducing the same temp or BTU's the flow of fuel could be measured accurately. Giving a real table to compare torches. After that one could find the maximum useable flame for each torch.

I'm not dismissing Kimberly hard work. I'm just saying these numbers are just one part of the equation. The other part needed would be the temperature of the flame itself. That way we're comparing Apples to Apples.

Just a thought
Scott
You're right, and this is just the first step, Scott.

The numbers posted are still useful for someone wanting to know oxygen consumption, for instance, in order to help select a concentrator/generator. I hope to eventually replace the pass-through numbers with rates of consumption while running the largest usable flame, but at least they serve as some sort of upper limit in the mean time.

The numbers reflecting the maximum usable flame can be useful when comparing two torches thought to be in the same size class for fuel and oxygen efficiency. For example, you would think that a Minor and a Mini CC would have similar oxygen/fuel usage because they are roughly the same size and have the same number of jets. However, when tested, the Mini CC is shown to use quite a bit more oxygen and fuel. It would indeed be even more helpful to include a flame to flame comparison of the two torches, since if one is producing a larger usable flame, then you perhaps that could be why the consumption rates are higher. I have made such a comparison for the Mini CC, the Minor, and the Bobcat that includes such things as flame size and oxygen/fuel consumptions. Anyway, there are so many variables to it all and so much to be tested. I could not put everything in this thread. I plan to do it one step at a time, if possible.
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  #33  
Old 2008-06-07, 5:39am
Alison D Alison D is offline
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Kbinkster, thanks for all the data.
Hayley, Scott, Mr. Smiley, and everyone we all rely on your knowledge. I already need a hotter torch so I am waiting with baited breath for the outcome of all this research.

Is there a way to trully measure BTUs of a flame without actually heating water or do all the appliance and grill mfg. just use a formula based on fuel consumption? I can't see the grill companies actually testing each different size burner for BTUs. I think they cheat.

I guess what I am asking of all our super bright peaple here is, is there a way we will ever realistically get this data?

It does seem kinda silly that we all buy these expensive torches without this info and we wouldn't even consider buying a propane grill without knowing.

I guess it wouldn't matter so much if everyone had the ability to test drive all the torches first to see what the best fit would be, but this is not possible. Most of us make decisions based on our fellow glass workers recomendations and then order them and pray we haven't made a bum call. I think all the torches being considered are excellent products it is just finding the match for the working style and the type of glass, and the fuel and oxy consumption that gets hard to compare. All your hard work will make this easier for those of use who haven't even seen these torches run, let alone used one.

Thanks for all your hard work,

Alison
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  #34  
Old 2008-06-08, 3:34pm
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Kimberly, thanks for all this research. This is a great thread and just the info I'm always looking for when I'm thinking about a new torch, which I am now--a Phantom.

I have a Regalia and Oxybox-13 (Air Sep) set up and know that I can adequately power my Cheetah or Barracuda or Knight Little Dragon 21. These are the three torches that I've been using most often. I understand that it's probably not 100% but it's enough for what I need. So by looking at the oxygen numbers on these and comparing with the Phantom's, I'll feel a lot more confident in my purchase.
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  #35  
Old 2009-04-01, 1:48am
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Hi Kimberly,

Thank you for all this great info. Just one more question. Do you happen to know the o2 consumption rate for the cricket?
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  #36  
Old 2010-07-24, 10:33pm
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Quoted to save it

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Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Here are the maximum consumption rates for various torches used for lampworking. I'm starting this off with the numbers that I had off the top of my head or easily at hand. I will edit as necessary to reflect accurate rates and to add more data. Most rates were taken from the manufacturers. Some rates were acquired through testing that I had done and will be noted with[*].

Some rates are what is measured when the valves are all the way open. Other rates are what is measured when running the largest usable flame. I feel that these are the most useful numbers and will note them with [++]

Disclaimer: While I have made every effort to ensure that this information is correct, I cannot gaurantee it. Use this data at your own risk.

Most of these rates are listed as cubic feet per hour (CFH). To convert to LPM, multiply by 0.472.

Where I have both oxygen and fuel consumption rates listed, I list the oxygen rate first. Fuel will be for propane unless otherwise noted.

GTT
Bobcat:
Lynx: ++14-15 CFH / 3.5 CFH
Cheetah: ++22 CFH
Phantom: ++35-40 CFH
Mirage: ++55 CFH
Delta Elite: ++65 CFH
Delta Mag: ++80-90 CFH
Cobra:
Python:
Viper:

Bethlehem
Minnow: 20 CFH
Betta: 12 CFH
Piranha/centerfire: (++*16 CFH oxy), 9.6 CFH / 2.8 CFH
Barracuda: ++42 CFH / 8.4 CFH
Tiger Shark: ++48 CFH / 12 CFH
Great White: ++84.5 CFH/ 48.1 CFH
PM2D: ++65 CFH / 37 CFH

Carlisle
Mini CC: 7 LPM (standard usage)
Wildcat:
Hellcat:
Lucio torch:
CC: ++*80 CFH
CC+:
Black Widow:

Nortel
Minor: ++14 CFH
Mega Minor:
Midrange:
Major:
RedMax:
Red Rocket:
SSQ:

Knight
Little Dragon 7-hole: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG)
Little Dragin 21-hole: 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Bullet: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG) for the center and 100 CFH/50 CFH (NG) for just the outer = for a toal of 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Dragon Fire: 180 CFH/90 CFH
Dragon Master: 330 CFH/165 CFH
Dragon Slayer: 676 CFH/338 CFH

Premier
National 8M SM7 tip:
National 8M SM21 tip:

Herbert Arnold
Arni:
Zenit 65: 165.9 CFH


As we get more and more information together, I will put this all in a spreadsheet that will be much easier to read.
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  #37  
Old 2010-07-25, 12:55am
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Quoted to save it
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  #38  
Old 2010-07-25, 6:07pm
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Mr. Meker Mr. Meker is offline
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I would like to add some of my own experience

-The minor is not fully powered on 14cfh of oxygen. I put around 20cfh through mine and would happily use 30.

Then some premix tips from National

OX3-7lpm
OX-01.5lpm

Also, measuring the flame temperature is not relevant. This is because a propane air flame burns at around 2000C. Silica, the main ingredient in glass and a glass it self, melts at around 1650C. There is no way that you will ever melt silica with a hothead in a usable quantity.

A propane oxygen flame burns around 2500C. Silica boils at 2230C. This means that by the time the glass reaches the temperature of the flame, it will have evaporated, leaving nothing but molten calcium oxide.

The "official" softening temperature of borosilicate glass is 820C.
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