M-10 and M-20 oxy concentrator feild testing thread... whatcha doing with yours? - Page 2

oxydoc · #31 2006-03-15, 6:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin L

concentrators/generators that use pressure swing adsorption technology should breathe. That means that if there is 2 sieve beds, it should breathe...as the valves switch the compressed air from one sieve bed to the other. Only units I am aware of that you wont hear breathe are the Sequal units, because they have a totally different sieve bed design with a rotating motor on the bottom of it that constantly cycles the air through the parts of the sieve bed, eliminating the breathing noise.

And believe it or not, your generator probably has a holding tank (product tank) of some sort in it, but its probably small...not a 30 gallon tank like you may be thinking of

And Justin is absolutely right. The sieve beds have to purge the nitrogen out of the sieve so it can be used again and again. The millennium does this every 8 seconds or so. After air is forced through the sieve and all the nitrogen is trapped, oxygen only is allowed to pass. So it backflushes the sieve bed to blow out the nitrogen. The breathing you hear is this process. The nitrogen passes out of the beds through a muffler. If the muffler was'nt there you would hear a loud gush of air. This process also causes a slight drop in pressure at the higher flow settings causing the fluctuation some have seen. The millennium as most concentrators, do have a small holding tank called a product tank. But it does little to eliminate fluctuation. That is why air will continue to come from the outlet for a while after to unit is shut off. Hope this helps in understanding the breathing, living little monster machine. jack

KLittle · #32 2006-03-15, 10:39pm

Thank you both for the great explanations! It made sense to me that this was to be expected, but knowing the 'why' satisfies my curiousity and validates just what I thought.

This is a great thread and I look forward to watching the future developments with these machines!

Kari

Mr. Smiley · #33 2006-03-16, 3:53am

Kari... I have two units, so I guess they must be breathing at different times... my flame does not fluctuate at all. Hasn't yet anyway. It's just a steady flow... I got two, so I wouldn't have to push either machine too hard. Brad just got two in yesterday and he is happy as a peacock so far. He said it powered his Phantom beautifully. I can't wait to hear what he has to say about it today after he's had a chance to work on it.

Justin L · #34 2006-03-16, 6:31am

My guess is if your actual flame is fluctuating at higher flow rates when the machine cycles, is that you are exhausting what little oxygen is reserved in the product tank. Once it builds back up in the tank, the flame will get better.

If this is the case, the only solutions are to use the unit at a lower flow rate, or find a way to hook up an auxillary holding tank.

Mr. Smiley · #35 2006-03-16, 9:58am

With two, I have had zero problems... run smooth as hell. Never any fluctuation. I'm happy so far.

Justin L · #36 2006-03-16, 10:26am

yeah, Ive only seen people with one machine asking why the flame fluctuates until they turn the flow down. No big deal.

KLittle · #37 2006-03-16, 11:56am

Thanks for the info, Brent. That is exactly what I was thinking of next .... that two machines hooked together would breathe differently and kinda cancel the effect out.

I am running a Lynx on an Onyx+. The flame doesn't 'look' like it changes with the breathing but I can 'feel' it, if that makes sense. It is certainly not a bother and performs really well. For Boro beads I am running it at ~65% and that seems to be perfect. I just bought a Midrange to work some larger pieces. I can do them on my Lynx but they take a while. So, thought I'd try the Midrange for a wider flame since I know that it should run on one of these units. My preference is to stay with GTT ... I love the flame chemistry ... so I will watch to find out more about how these two machines run a Phantom.

That would be my wish .... to run a Phantom without tanks! Yikes, the cost of a Phantom and another generator, guess I should start saving now!

Just one more question ... I have heard that if you hook up two generators/concentrators that you should stick to the same type of unit for each. What is your take on it Justin, Jack?

Kari

Justin L · #38 2006-03-16, 12:05pm

I think they mean you should stick to around the same PSI so the machines dont "fight" each other and create backflow. I still think this is bogus, too. There are check valves in line in these concentrators to prevent backflow. For example, I take one of my 9PSI concentrators and a 5 PSI concentrator (both are 5 Liter Per Minute, or LPM), and a couple test meters I have here in the shop. The meters read 9PSI, and 10 LPM. Since when you have two concentrators together, the flow (LPM) increases but the pressure doesnt.

With my two 5LPM test machines connected, it reads 10LPM. And since one machine is 9PSI and the other is 5PSI, the pressure gauge reads 9.

Both concentrators continue to operate as they should, without them shutting down due to backpressure/backflow. Maybe if your y connector was made out of tiney tubing that would be a problem....

Hope that makes sense.

KLittle · #39 2006-03-16, 12:35pm

That makes perfect sense. Thank you!

Kari

jokersdesign · #40 2006-03-16, 1:32pm

what kind of guage would you use to read the LPM coming for 2 concentrators?

kbinkster · #41 2006-03-16, 2:04pm

You could use a liter meter to read the output of the T-d concentrators, or, you could add what one machine's LPM gauge reads to what the other machine's LPM gauge reads - you are adding volume to volume. So, if both machines are putting out 10 LPM, you would have a total of 20 LPM. Calculating pressures is another story.

kbinkster · #42 2006-03-16, 2:17pm

BTW, this other thread has become quite interesting and is relevant to this one:
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...t=15519&page=2

Post #58 is particulary intertesting. I wonder if anyone else has any information regarding this.

Mr. Smiley · #43 2006-03-16, 5:21pm

Kimberly... if you have recently bought one of these units and can provide first hand feedback on them, I welcome you to this thread... if not, please go to the other thread and post. This is intended as an end user feedback thread by me... the origionator. Thanks for not hijacking. I normally don't mind it, but I don't want to muddy these waters with speculation. Only first hand knowledge... TY

kbinkster · #44 2006-03-16, 8:07pm

Brent, we have three of these units in the shop right now. I will post our findings when the testing is completed.

Anakin's Glass Eye · #45 2006-03-16, 9:42pm

This is my post from the Melting Pot forum:

Hi all.

Yesterday I recived two Unlimited Oxygen M-20s. I had them hooked up within 20 minutes and gave them a quick test. Last night I spent about 4 hours with them running my Phantom. I will provide a much more thorough critique after this weekend, after I spend some real quality time with them. My first impressions are this:

They run without a hitch. They are quieter than either my AirSep Newlife (5LPM oxycon) or my Companion 590 (5 LPM oxycon). Much more quiet. They are rock steady w.r.t. flow and pressure up to about 8 LPM. Above 8 LPM there is some flow/pressure oscillation. This is evident mostly by the sound of the flame at the torch. The actual flame size really doesn't fluxuate - it's mostly the sound that gives indication of fluxuation. I can not attest to the purity of the Oxy being pumped out by the M-20's since there's no oxy concentration indication. Also, I have not yet worked with any sensitive colors or tried any gold or silver fuming yet so I can't really speak to purity right now.

As far as how well the Phantom performs on two M-20's, that is very subjective and I can only estimate performance in comparison to what I have experience with. Today I spent the day at The Gathering Place in Naperville, ILL in a class with John Olsen. I used my own Phantom and I hooked up to liquid O2 and propane. So, in total, I have about 6 hours of experience on a Phantom with unlimited Oxy flow and pressure. To keep a long story short, I'd estimate the Phantom to be at about 75-80% capacity running off two M-20s set to 8 LPM. I have no reason to think the M-20's won't run full out at 10 LPM reliably. I just have not tried it, yet.

Once I have more time at the torch I will post more information/opinions and some pictures. My initial impression is that the M-20s will be an economical solution to my own personal oxy needs at this time.

Brad

P.S. I do not represent anyone but myself. I do not sell equipment and I am in no way compensated by anyone that does. The information that I post is only my opinion at the time I post. My goal is to provide information which may prove helpfull to fellow glass freaks and the glass artist community in general. I welcome questions and if I've been unclear about something, please ask. Thanks.

And to add: having two oxycons connected does dampen any fluxuations you would see from one oxycon at high flow rates. I've had one M-20 hooked to a Lynx and saw fluxuations at high flow rates above 8 LPM. I hooked up a second smaller capacity oxycon with the M-20 and saw a perfectly constant flow and pressure. Unless the units are perfectly synchronized (which will never happen) they compensate for each other and any fluxuations are dampened nicely. With two M-20's hooked to my Phantom, I see absolutely no fluxuation at the torch nozzle.

KLittle · #46 2006-03-16, 9:52pm

Fantastic! Thanks for the info. I will look forward to hearing more after you have had more of a chance to play around with your new set up. (Like playing with sensitive colors, etc.)

Kari

Mr. Smiley · #47 2006-03-17, 4:24am

Thise one was my first on the Cuda and 2-M-20 combo... AP is kind of a touchy color, when it comes to haze. It came out perfect and sold right away too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESO%3AIT&rd=1

jokersdesign · #48 2006-03-17, 8:18am

What’s up with the fluxuations?

I have 4 smaller capacity oxygen concentrators and I only get fluxuation problems on 1 of the units at 5 LPM. My guess is because this was a used unit off ebay and it has a problem with releasing nitrogen when switching from one sleeve bed to the other. The oxygen purity at 5LPM is between the high 80's to low 90's and my other 3 units that don't have fluxuation problems are always at 94-95% purity at 5 LPM.

That’s kind of strange. I don't thing you should be getting fluxuation problems with any concentrator modified or not regardless of what LPM you’re running at.

Justin L · #49 2006-03-17, 8:25am

product holding tank is too small... might need an auxillary holding tank

KLittle · #50 2006-03-17, 5:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Thise one was my first on the Cuda and 2-M-20 combo... AP is kind of a touchy color, when it comes to haze. It came out perfect and sold right away too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESO%3AIT&rd=1

Ohhhhhh, that is very encouraging!

beadworkstudio · #51 2006-03-18, 10:23pm

I'm running one Piranha on an M-10 and one on a Devilbiss MC64 (both with propane). The torch on the M-10 is definately hotter, but the difference is not huge. I ran a Minor with the M-10, and it was also hotter. Again, not a huge difference, but noticeable.

I work exclusively with soft glass--Lauscha, Moretti, and Uroboros. 96 COE was pretty slow on the Minor/Devilbiss, but it was much easier with the M-10. I only did a simple test, but that was enough for me.

The noise from the M-10 is really not bad. It makes the Devilbiss sound loud, but the noise from that one never really bothered me. It's a small thing, but I really like that the alarm is disabled on the M-10.

I can actually run both Piranhas on the M-10 and get a neutral flame on both, but just barely. I would not recommend trying two torches on one oxy con. At least not on the M-10. You'd have to turn one torch off to get anywhere close to an oxy flame.

So, I'm going to get another M-10, but I have been considering an M-20 instead. I really have no desire to do anything with boro, but I do frequently use 96 COE. Would that be overkill, or would I love it all that much more?

Mr. Smiley · #52 2006-03-19, 8:28am

Sheila, at some point, more oxygen cools the flame. I'm sure that's why it's hotter, but not a huge difference. Your smaller concentrator almost has enough to get to the top of the hill, but not quite... and if definitely can't give you the cool oxydized flame. This is useful when working a lot of boro colors. You need oxydized ,but cooler, to keep it from boiling. That's really the bennefit of having more oxy flow in the way I work.

If your torch doesn't require the higher pressure, it's not worth getting an M-20. The M-10 has about the same volume... spend the money you will save on glass if you can.

Feel free to call me any time.

Mr. Smiley · #53 2006-03-20, 6:17pm

Ok, so check this out... I got the Cheetah today and hooked it up. The two M-20's really do a good job of running that torch. It get's good and hot and is easy to get neutral to oxydized settings. The thing is, it definitely doesn't have that push that the tanks provide. Noticeably different heat penetration on the two M-20's. Definitely not the GTT I was used to... so, I'm going to do more experiments. Now that I have a GTT and Beth, I'm going to do some heat tests on concentrators. I know they've been done on tanks, but I think the Beth may be hotter on concentrators. It's just a preliminary guess, but I'm going to have fun with this over the next several months. I am really liking the concentrators. Getting used to them is definitely fun stuff. I'm getting into the groove nicely. I'm liking the colors I'm getting as well.

kbinkster · #54 2006-03-21, 3:34pm

I posted the results GTT obtained in a new thread:
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...848#post397848

IF-Designs · #55 2006-03-21, 4:00pm

who manifactures the M-10 and M-20 ?

kbinkster · #56 2006-03-21, 4:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IF-Designs

who manifactures the M-10 and M-20 ?

South Central Cryogenics/Unlimited Oxygen modifies the Millennium units originally manufactured by Respironics.

kbinkster · #57 2006-03-21, 4:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Ok, so check this out... I got the Cheetah today and hooked it up. The two M-20's really do a good job of running that torch. It get's good and hot and is easy to get neutral to oxydized settings. The thing is, it definitely doesn't have that push that the tanks provide. Noticeably different heat penetration on the two M-20's. Definitely not the GTT I was used to... so, I'm going to do more experiments. Now that I have a GTT and Beth, I'm going to do some heat tests on concentrators. I know they've been done on tanks, but I think the Beth may be hotter on concentrators. It's just a preliminary guess, but I'm going to have fun with this over the next several months. I am really liking the concentrators. Getting used to them is definitely fun stuff. I'm getting into the groove nicely. I'm liking the colors I'm getting as well.

It is interesting that you would require two M-20s to run a Cheetah, and not to full capacity at that, and Pam Dugger is running her Cheetah just fine with one OG20.

I can run my Cheetah with one Integra 10. The Integra 10 is only 9psi at 10 lpm, so it is not running it at full capacity. However, it is enough to work soft glass and small to medium boro easily.

Did you ever take your units to be tested for purity?

oxydoc · #58 2006-03-21, 5:12pm

Hey Brent, glad to hear the M20s are working out for you. Its true that GTT recieved 2 M20s that were not working well. We have been communicating with them to replace the units and recieve the bad ones back for further failure investigation. I guess this proves that we dont doctor our units for field testing.
Our learning curve on these units has been a long one. We hold GTT in very high regard and regret that they recieved less than perfect units. Of course we want their approval and we will try again. We did not discuss a time frame with GTT because we were going to include the new psyclone with the testing. Jean at Nortel is still waiting for units to test as well as several others interested in distribution.
We have had several units damaged during shipping. Sometimes just setting a unit down to hard can shake important parts loose and not show outside the unit. God only knows what these go through during shipping. I have recieved units back where the PC board was shaken loose and hanging down, the regulator broken off, castors shattered, compressors banging against the side. You name it. I will post what I find with these two M 20s.
I think we have had some pretty good reviews so far on this post. We have replaced every unit that anyone has had a problem with. We pay shipping for the replacement. So buying one of these units is risk free. Have patience and keep the faith. We will make everyone proud and happy. jack

oxydoc · #59 2006-03-21, 5:32pm

Brent, By the way, I posted a new pic of the Psyclone II on my profile. Check it out.

Mr. Smiley · #60 2006-03-21, 5:45pm

That unit looks cool, now get one down here. LOL

Kimberly, you have to understand that my full tilt and Pam's full tilt are two totally different things. I can guarantee you don't use 50% of what a triple mix is capable of on bottles with soft glass. Run yours on bottles and actually do some bigger boro work. See what a GTT can really do before you brag about how your concentrator runs one.