Lampwork Etc.
 
TrueDesign on Ebay

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Donate via PayPal to donate@lampworketc.com

Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Safety

Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 2008-08-01, 8:41pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
da General
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,999
Default

I am with you, Pam and Dale . . . and I was quoted!
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 2008-08-02, 7:19am
debkauz's Avatar
debkauz debkauz is offline
Covered in glitter
 
Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
Default

Pam I totally agree with you. I'm willing to take the risk in the situation I'm working in right now. It's that or no torch at all and I'm just not willing to have no torch at all at the moment. When it gets too cold for me to sit on my deck and torch then I'm through for a while. I would never even dream of taking it inside.
It's a choice I'm making and it's one I can live with. Somehow I doubt if it's even close to a Darwin Award.
__________________
~Deb~

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 2008-08-02, 8:05am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

All you anti hose-bulk fuel people check this out.......




http://www.ozziebuddy.com/hotheadinfo.html

Now I do have a problem with this as I don't want a #5 (pound (2 kg)) bomb near my jewels... If this tank goes off, its going to be right in front of your torso..........

And here is product sold in Europe......... Only difference it has regulator that keeps gas pressure at 4 "bar" or about 60 psi.........



This might be the best setup, but unfortunately its about $200 to setup...

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal

Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-08-02 at 7:39pm.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 2008-08-02, 8:43am
Dennis Brady's Avatar
Dennis Brady Dennis Brady is offline
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Apr 12, 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 5,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by debkauz View Post
Pam I totally agree with you. I'm willing to take the risk in the situation I'm working in right now. It's that or no torch at all and I'm just not willing to have no torch at all at the moment. When it gets too cold for me to sit on my deck and torch then I'm through for a while. I would never even dream of taking it inside.
It's a choice I'm making and it's one I can live with. Somehow I doubt if it's even close to a Darwin Award.
I would expect that for every person running a hot head with mini tanks there are a hundred running one with a hose to a bulk tank. If so many people are doing this dangerous deed, why aren't we hearing more about "Darwin award nominees"? Could it be because the risk factor is no greater then running a hose from a bulk tank to a torch?

Maybe we should just tell folks that in order to really be safe, they should just sit and admire their torch but never light it?
__________________
Dennis Brady

DeBrady Glassworks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- - Glass Campus
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Victorian Art Glass
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Master Artisan
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 2008-08-02, 9:03am
debkauz's Avatar
debkauz debkauz is offline
Covered in glitter
 
Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
Default

The thing that I really wonder is why we are making such a big deal of this being a HotHead? I would assume that the problem that happened could happen with ANY torch set up. It wasn't the torch. It wasn't the tank. It was the HOSE. That could happen to anyone, no matter what the torch set up they were using. I wonder if anyone would get their knicks in such a twist if it had been a Minor or a Bobcat or any other duel fuel torch. As was pointed out to me by someone I respect a lot, when it happened with another torch the answer was basically that these things happen and get a flashback arrestor. No sky is falling there..
__________________
~Deb~

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche

Last edited by debkauz; 2008-08-02 at 9:05am.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 2008-08-02, 10:13am
pam's Avatar
pam pam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
Default

You know, Dennis, if you don't understand something then why not ask instead of making sweeping statements that hold no element of truth. The fact is that there is a greater risk using a hot head or similar gas-only torch than there is on an oxy/propane torch. The reason it is a greater risk is simply one of quantity/pressure. Because the propane tanks have a pressure of 250 psi, the quantity of propane that would escape in a given period of time is 50 times as much as at a regulated pressure of 5 psi. At least that is my understanding.

Deb, you are right, people are sort of making a big deal about it because it was a gas only torch, because the gas-only torches operate at such high pressure. Yes, the problem could happen with any torch, but the risk of blowing yourself up is somewhat greater if there is a leak in an unregulated hose. We have a very safe community and sometimes new beadmakers come on the scene and take risks without understanding the risks they are taking. I definitely would be the last person to say, Deb, don't do that! It is your choice and as long as you knowingly assume the risks it is fine.
__________________
Pam

"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Blog
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 2008-08-02, 11:00am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Because the propane tanks have a pressure of 250 psi, the quantity of propane that would escape in a given period of time is 50 times as much as at a regulated pressure of 5 psi. At least that is my understanding.
Just to keep facts straight ..........

Actually at 80 f. the internal tank pressure is about 127 PSI.... It takes a tank (ambient) temperature of about 120 f. to get tank pressures up to 250psi.... Also tank safety valves (part of OPD valve) are set to blow off excessive pressures at about 365 psi... So you don't want your tank anywhere near a fire or a heat source about 200 f. or more. See chart on site below.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

If you want to completely understand propane tank safety this is about the most comprehensive site on the internet, at least that I have been able to find. Just be aware all the appliance application discussed on this site is for tradition home type appliances like furnaces, water heaters, gas stoves. They do not relate (in most cases) to lampwork applications... Although same safety scenarios still apply.

http://www.propane101.com/index.htm

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal

Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-08-02 at 11:06am.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 2008-08-02, 12:29pm
pam's Avatar
pam pam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
Default

Thanks, Dale. I knew you would come up with the correct information. I appreciate it.
__________________
Pam

"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Blog
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 2008-08-02, 5:40pm
ditfd's Avatar
ditfd ditfd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 94
Default

Forgive me, but could somebody backtrack for me? I'm confused with the original scenario, and then some of the stuff said after...

1.) Is the propane tank described in the first post separate from the bulk tank of, I'm assuming, MAPP gas being used for beadmaking with the HH? So the propane tank was leaking and it caused the explosion?

2.) If MAPP gas is discontinued, or will be, what should folks use with a HH?

3.) Also, isn't a HH an internal mix torch or whatever it's called, vs. say a minor which is surface mix? Wouldn't that have something to do with the need for flashback arrestors?

4.) Can a regulator be used on a bulk tank of fuel used with a HH, or must it flow out at that pressure?

Sorry if this is a rehash, but it seems confusing to me, and I want to understand it completely.

Best,
Patti
__________________
In fact, the ability to start out upon your own impulse is fundamental to the gift of keeping going upon your own terms, not to mention the further and more fulfilling gift of getting started all over again -- never resting upon the oars of success or in the doldrums of disappointment....Getting started, keeping going, getting started again -- in art and in life, it seems to me this is the essential rhythm.... --Seamus Heaney


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 2008-08-02, 7:33pm
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditfd View Post
Forgive me, but could somebody backtrack for me? I'm confused with the original scenario, and then some of the stuff said after...

1.) Is the propane tank described in the first post separate from the bulk tank of, I'm assuming, MAPP gas being used for beadmaking with the HH? So the propane tank was leaking and it caused the explosion?
It was a BULK propane tank with HH on a hose. It appears there was a leak in hose or in hose fitting near HH.

Quote:

2.) If MAPP gas is discontinued, or will be, what should folks use with a HH?
Propane, Map-Pro (propylene), Propylene, Chemtane or almost any other brazing fuels. Specifically not acetylene as it is to dirty.

Quote:

3.) Also, isn't a HH an internal mix torch or whatever it's called, vs. say a minor which is surface mix? Wouldn't that have something to do with the need for flashback arrestors?
Being the HH is a fuel air torch and is technically a premix (internal mix), but that it is powered (draws air) by the force of fuel being pushed through a orifice it can not flashback. The orifice as about the size of a human hair and it is so small and the pressure behind the orifice is so great the flame front can not pass through the orifice to cause a flashback... Therefor no flashback arrestor needed.

Quote:

4.) Can a regulator be used on a bulk tank of fuel used with a HH, or must it flow out at that pressure?
Yes you can use a regulator with a HH, the regulator will have to be capable of supplying fuel to torch at about 60 to 80 PSI... HH is designed to function at tank pressure which at 70 f. is about 110 PSI. By time you buy hose and setup with regulator and what not, you might as well bypass the HH and go directly to fuel/oxygen torch.

Quote:

Sorry if this is a rehash, but it seems confusing to me, and I want to understand it completely.

Best,
Patti
Any time understanding is needed, do not hesitate to ask questions...

Cheers

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal

Last edited by Dale M.; 2008-08-02 at 7:43pm.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 2008-08-02, 7:51pm
ditfd's Avatar
ditfd ditfd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 94
Default

Thanks Dale!

I haven't used my HH in years, but keep it around for guests to use if they want to play. I'd gotten very behind in the technology of it all.

Best,
Patti
__________________
In fact, the ability to start out upon your own impulse is fundamental to the gift of keeping going upon your own terms, not to mention the further and more fulfilling gift of getting started all over again -- never resting upon the oars of success or in the doldrums of disappointment....Getting started, keeping going, getting started again -- in art and in life, it seems to me this is the essential rhythm.... --Seamus Heaney


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 2008-08-04, 10:43am
laserglass's Avatar
laserglass laserglass is offline
old fart
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
Default

reality 101!!!!

http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/20...aking-propane/
__________________
Mark Wilson

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 2008-08-04, 1:07pm
debkauz's Avatar
debkauz debkauz is offline
Covered in glitter
 
Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
Default

I understand all of this and I also understand that it all assumes that we sit around and do nothing while this was occuring. There IS a risk. I'm not trying to say there isn't but it seems a little like ChickenLittle yelling about the sky falling. If I'm the person who gets hurt yep, I'll be really pissed at myself. However, I think the safety checks that I do minimize my risks. Do I want to rely on someone else's quality control? I do it all the time. Every time I get in my car, every time I light my stove...every time I do anything that can be dangerous I rely on someone else's quality control. As a nurse BOY did I rely on someone else's quality control...as did the ICU patients that I cared for on a daily basis. Our LIVES revolve around someone else's quality control.
__________________
~Deb~

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 2008-08-05, 3:28pm
JLyman JLyman is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 01, 2008
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserglass View Post

I read the article and truthfully it made me sick to my stomach. I can't tell you how this incident has changed me. I have gone back to the small yellow canisters we all love. I am buying a new torch soon but I will NEVER torch with the tank anywhere near me and I will NEVER use a hose with my HH again. I respect others and their decisions but what happened to me was horrible and I will not risk it again. If I didn't truly love glass I would have quit right then! I'm glad my experience has sparked this conversation that will hopefully prevent anything like this from happeneing to anyone else.
Jen
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:14pm.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 54.91.203.233