HELP.....I need advice on where to set up!

[JanetB58]

Just bought a new torch and wanted to buy propane and oxygen yesterday and the guy at the store said that i can't set it up in my basement???? Any-one else out there have their torch in the basement?? If i can't set it up i'll have to move....no garage and the shed is out of the question. Any suggestions please, i want to use the new torch and i'm upset now!!!!
Also....what size tanks are the most common to use? Thanks, Janet

[squid]

You can't have your propane inside - you need to have it piped in. You can have your oxy inside though.

[ewdb]

Janet,

what kind of torch are you using? i set up my lampwork and jewellery studio in an upstairs bedroom.

When i was on the HH i used it with the 1lb green (camping style) propane tanks. In Ontario you're allowed to keep a max of three of those inside your home.

when i changed to the Mega Minor i bought an oxy concentrator and now use a 5lb propane tank (which in Ontario and a couple other provinces is the max you're allowed to keep inside). You can get the empty tank at Canadian Tire - if it's not out on the floor then ask customer service and they can pull it from the back/special order area. i go to one of local propane dealers to get it filled.

[NMLinda]

Dale M. has a white paper he posted on the Art Glass Answers forum that's worth reading - I highly recommend it. While he discourages basement set-ups in general because of the necessary special care and planning involved, he and others have posted recommendations on how to do so safely.

The biggest safety concerns he notes are the common practices of having both water heaters and home heating furnaces in the basement, and window configurations that may limit how well make-up air can be brought in just for lampworking, which has to be independent from the appliances' make-up air needs. If the proper precautions aren't taken, it's relatively easy to unbalance how these are ventilated and inadvertently pull their fumes into the basement.

Until life otherwise intervened, I was in the process of setting up a basement studio. I found Dale's white papers and related posts extremely helpful. Since I was working with new construction, my (propane) water heaters are sealed with a double flue going out my roof, meaning that it both takes in fresh air and exhausts it outside in a closed system. Older gas/propane water heaters, however, often have flues/vents that are open at the top of the tank, making it possible to pull exhaust fumes into the room. My (propane) forced air heater has a similar vent through the roof, but also has it's own make-up air grill to the outside next to it and built into the basement wall. Even so, I still walled my studio off completely from the rest of the basement, per recommendations I'd read, so that I didn't accidentally create a back-draw. I set up my studio in the walk-out side, with lots of windows well away from my hood exhaust and a door that could be used for make-up air independent of the rest of the basement. If I'd been there a little longer, I would have also installed under the bench make up air from a vent through the outside wall.

The folks who have the most challenges are those with older hot water or forced air heaters and no basement windows/doors to the outside. These are hard to set up safely.

Regardless, I would recommend that you research all the available glassworking sites for basement studio set ups and related safety concerns before you get too far.

And Squid is right - no propane inside!! Because it's heavier than air, it can pool if your tank leaks, making it particularly dangerous to have tanks in a basement. Dale and others have had some good posts on that subject, too.

Linda

[JanetB58]

I bought a Mega Minor and was using a Hot Head with the small propane bottles.

[NMLinda]

If you want to set up with tanked oxygen at least to start out, you'll probably want a good sized cylinder, like a K-sized tank. You can get smaller ones, but if you plan on many fun hours torching a week, having to change them out frequently can become a PITA. If you have a walk-out basement, K-sized cylinders (about 250 cu ft oxygen capacity) aren't too hard to roll or dolly into place. If not, hard piping through your basement wall, along with your propane, would be easier than trying to drag the tanks up and down a set of stairs. Oxygen concentrators are easier yet, and can be cheaper over time than tanks, but the wait time can vary and they're more expensive as an initial outlay.

Different countries have different local laws about propane. Many of us use the 5 gal barbeque size propane bottles (full, they weight about 40 lb or so), and most acetylene/propane regulators are made to fit the larger threads on that type of bottle. Can't comment on Canadian laws, but this size bottle is almost universally prohibited indoors in the US. You definately don't want to keep this size bottle inside, anyway, especially in a basement. Propane is heavier than air, and will pool near your floor: in a basement, you could be in big trougle trying to get it out, and with that much flammable propane, a leak could be catastrophic. Dale has a good post on Art Glass Answers on how to pipe propane in from the outside using hard pipe. Another LE member, I believe it's De Anne (the Glasszone), posted great pictures on how she did hers. It's not particularly hard to do, and most of the fittings are pretty easy to find at standard hardware stores.

Linda

[JanetB58]

Thanks Linda....this is starting to get overwhelming!!!!! I just thought I could set up the tanks and go.....can you tell me how to get the info you mentioned about the set-up? I'd really like to use this torch and don't want to move to do so!!!!! Thanks, Janet

[NMLinda]

Here's the link to the Art Glass Answers forum

www.artglassanswers.com

You need to get a login account to see the pictures - well worth it. The White Papers, Safety and Studio sections have a lot of great info. Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me this morning, or I'd give you the specific ones to the basement and how to pipe in propane safely. If it comes up again later, I'll re-post, but maybe you'll have more luck in the meantime.

Another excellent link to learn about ventilation (VERY important, especially in a basement!) is:

http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/ventilation-primer/

To get a good overview on how to set up your studio, I would highly recommend you get the following book:

"More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Glass Beadmaking" by James Kervin.

Quite a few of the vendors on this board carry this book. In my opinion, it has one of the best discussions on how to set up a studio, and by far the best safety section I've seen in the beadmaking books - great info, and important info.

I think you'll find, as you get into this more, that lampworking isn't really a casual thing to do, at least not safely, and you can get yourself in trouble fairly quickly healthwise if you're not careful. This is particularly true when working in relatively enclosed spaces like a basement. Quite a few folks on this board have very graciously shared their health impact experiences from working without adequate ventilation, insufficiently protective eyewear, lack of safety items in their gas lines (like flashback arrestors), working with propane tanks inside and having a near explosion (almost lost one of our members that way...). By no means do I want to frighten you - it's not difficult to set up a safe work area, and the resources above will help you get started in that direction.

To keep this from feeling overwhelming (which I understand! I felt that way, too, when I first started), I would recommend you start with James Kervin's book, first. I think it will help put the great info on the other links, above, into context for you, and hopefully make this info less confusing.

Linda

[theglasszone]

Hi Janet:

Sorry to hear about your woes - I faced a similar hurdle with setting up in my garage, but ultimately it led to writing this tutorial which I posted on LE:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...hlight=propane

I see there are Home Depot stores in Ontario, CANADA:

http://www.buyreiker.com/canada_home_depot.htm

Maybe you'll find some guidance in this tutorial! Good luck and definitely follow the "ventilation" precautions, too! I know you're anxious and frustrated, but haste may cause you health problems in the long run, so be patient and diligent - and do it "the right way"! You'll be glad you did!

De

[NMLinda]

Janet - Here is one link you might find interesting

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

The codes noted are US codes, but I don't think Canada is terribly different

Here is the basement link I mentioned earlier

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=12&t=430

And one on the basics of setting up a two-fuel torch

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=12&t=11

And the main page to Art Glass Answers

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/index.php

De - I'm glad you saw this thread, and thank you for posting your tutorial for Janet. It's very good - maybe CorriDawn would turn it into a sticky for everyone.

Linda

[Trey Cornette]

Just so you know. 90% of the professional studios I teach at and visit have their propane tanks inside.

(Edited for spelling. I just couldn't stand it!)

[NMLinda]

Trey - It may be true that some professional studios have their propane tanks inside, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that they aren't taking quite a risk. I think I might feel a little nervous teaching at studios like that, if it were me.

Janet - I'd suggest you take a look at cc2's post and Dale's posts in the following link

Propane in the house...
Bunyip | 2009-06-25, 11:49am

It's in the Torch Questions subsection of Tips, Techniques and Questions.

The link to the article cc2 included is worth looking at - the explosion was caused by the owner storing a bbq sized propane tank in a bedroom. The owner was lucky he didn't die (but you can imagine how well the discussion with his homeowner's insurance carrier went.....). If you have your hot water heater and furnace in the basement, which is where you are planning to work, you would easily have the ignition source needed to set off an explosion like this if you had your propane tank inside and it leaked. The reason for having the tank outside is so that you can regulate it down to a safer pressure (the lower pressure is also needed for your torch to operate correctly) before bringing it indoors. This lowers your risk considerably. Piping it through like De's tutorial and the Art Glass Forum links also gives you a way to quickly shut it off indoors if you suddenly develop a leak, even at the stepped-down pressure.

There are ways to set up with relative safety in a basement, but, as I think you'll quickly see from reading the links provided, it takes some thought.

Please come back and post if you have more questions!

Linda

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by Trey Cornette

Just so you know. 90% of the professional studios I teach at and visit have their propane tanks inside.

(Edited for spelling. I just couldn't stand it!)

Though commercial studios do it, does not mean its the safest way...

And a lot of commercial and supposed professional glass workers are not aware of rules governing propane storage or choose to bend or ignore them...

Also in some instances the difference between commercial buildings (zoning) and residential building (home) the rules are a bit different and do allow some permissions about larger tanks inside commercial spaces.... And if you sleep in a building its a residence by codes (for general application) and if a residence has attached garage the garage has same rules as living areas, no large propane tanks inside.... Also a detached building like a barn or shed does not fall under "residence" rules, but its still safer to keep tank outside....

Technically the new "fat boy" propane cylinders are even illegal inside because the rules state only 16oz. (1 pound) cylinders may be stored inside (2 maximum) and the new "fat boys" are actually 18oz... ( 1 pound 2 oz)...

Dale

[JanetB58]

Thanks Linda - and everyone else - for all of your help. I'm still trying to get hooked up, but now I'm looking as natural gas....probably safer in the basement. All of the links you posted were very helpful. I'll let you know when I'm up and running. Thanks again!!

[Elegance_1]

Janet, welcome to the world of never-too-much-information-about-lampworking-that-you-thought-you-already-knew. The chapter on being overwhelmed is specifically interesting!

Yep, just when you think you have it all down, someone turns the page!

When I went from a hothead to a Betta my DH poked a hole in the side of the garage and fed the hoses through so it would be safer to torch. I'm sure you'll be up in no time. Until then, I hope you kept your HH!

[tenor_ringer]

Originally Posted by JanetB58

Thanks Linda - and everyone else - for all of your help. I'm still trying to get hooked up, but now I'm looking as natural gas....probably safer in the basement. All of the links you posted were very helpful. I'll let you know when I'm up and running. Thanks again!!

Janet,

DW and I went with NG for our basement studio, and we love it. It's clean, convenient and won't run out mid-bead.

Just be aware that standard residential NG pressure is pretty low (usually 1/4 psi), but there are quite a few burners that will work at the lower pressure. Make sure you get a flashback arrestor that will work at the lower pressure. Talk with your equipment supplier and get a good gas-knowledgable contractor to put the line in. Craig at Arrow Spring gave us a lot of good advice that made the process so much easier.

We got a high pressure (5 psi) NG line run for our studio. It was expensive, but we feel it was well worth the cost.

Best of luck!