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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2011-08-14, 12:12pm
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Join Date: Jul 19, 2011
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Compressor/Concentrator Question
I'm looking to couple oxygen concentrators with an air compressor to stop having to pay for tanked oxygen. I enjoy the frivality of driving tanks around, but it's becoming too much of a hassle to keep up with.
I run a Nortel Red Max that requires 15psi (manufacture standard) of oxygen to run normally. My question is, what would be the best type of concentrator and compressor to buy?
I've seen a video of someone who linked three EX-15s (oxy concentrators) together and it ran his red max fine. I was wondering if I could achieve the same effect with a compressor and less concentrators.
I'm a little unsure as to what the compressor would do in terms of helping cut down on the tanked oxy dilemma as I'm fairly new to all of this. But I figure I could at least get a 150cf holding tank hooked up to say a 20psi compressor. That way, I can have some oxy backed up each day while the concentrators refil my holding supply.
I know I seem a little jumbled about all of this, and I apologize. I guess what I'm trying to do is cut down the need for concentrating machines with a compressor, which I doubt will do anything but allow me the use of holding tank. What is the purpse of a holding tank as well?
The EX-15 models I saw in the video had an output of 8lpm, so I figure I'd need a good 25lpm of concentrated oxygen to run my torch at full power.
If what I just typed seemed too unorganized to read, I am looking for an affordable way to run oxygen to my torch at full power without having to use tanks. Thank you in advance for all of your help.
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2011-08-14, 2:31pm
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Just doing some simple math ...
150cf is about 4247 liters. Your EX-15 puts out 8 liters/minute. It will take almost 9 hours to fill your holding tank. Running your torch at full power, you'll drain the tank in less than 3 hours. (obviously, you'll get more time if you're not running your torch at full power all the time)
150cf is also about 1000 gallons. May I ask where you plan to get a 1000 gallon holding tank? Remember, your tank *MUST* be clean, and free of *ANY* oil or grease.
If you can find that large of a clean holding tank, and it can take a higher pressure, I might suggest that you kick the pressure up a little more ... to maybe 60 psi. This may be important if you ever decide to upgrade to a larger torch in the future.
Other than that, your idea sounds fine. Plus, you can always add a second EX-15 to the system in the future if you upgrade to a larger torch.
Malcolm
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2011-08-14, 3:00pm
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I was looking into one of those lug around compressor/tank combos with wheels. They have adequate PSI 60+, but their tanks are usually around 50cf. (I apologize if I'm getting my acroynyms wrong).
Just to clarify, a compressor is usually only used to ramp up the PSI on concentrators correct? And it can only be used with a holding tank, otherwise you'd just be pushing the same LPM through your torch at a higher PSI.
So, the trick comes down to having the right combination of LPM,PSI, and holding tank as you cannont run off of a tank while filling it correct? There obviously is no need for me to go over 25lpm concentrator wise as my torch can run fine off of that.
I must have had my thoughts mixed up as I figured I would be better of with a compressor, but forgot to calculate the fill specifications of the tank.
I tried to figure out the numbers for getting a ten hour tank, but don't know if I got them right. Correct me if I'm wrong.
2 EX-15 (~$1000) at 16lpm
Compressor (preferabbly something that will give me 10 hours of work time and fills in less than 14 hours) - I had trouble finding one like this.
PS. I apologize about my cf mis calculation, I have an H tank and it holds 250 (of something)
What is the best option for me at this point? I only want to be able to run my torch without having to go the oxy depot. I have looked into liquid oxy, but found it to be a little expensive considering you have to use it steadily without many breaks.
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2011-08-14, 3:46pm
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Gasses are compressible, liquids are not. This is why the holding tanks on your typical air compressor are measured in gallons. The number of gallons a tank can hold is fixed. The number of cubic feet of a gas (air, oxygen, etc) depends on the pressure.
A standard K tank has a volume of about 1.76 gallons. At 1 atmosphere (14 psi), it only holds about 50 liters of oxygen. But, at 2200 psi, it holds over 7840 liters of oxygen!
My above calculations were to fill your 1000 gallon tank to just one atmosphere (14 psi). To fill it to 20 psi will take over 12.6 hours. My mistake.
The people that have been building systems like this are usually using 20 to 60 gallon tanks. And, they are usually going to a higher pressure, like 80-100 psi.
A 60 gallon tank (227 liters) at 100 psi will hold about 1621 liters of compressed oxygen. This will run your torch (at full power) for about 1 hour. To fill the tank with a single EX-15 will take about 3.4 hours. A second EX-15 would cut this in half. Three EX-15s would just about keep up with the usage in real time (especially if you weren't running your torch at full power all the time!).
Yes, you can use a standard air compressor as the basis for your system. You will have to clean the tank *COMPLETELY* to remove *ALL* traces of oil and grease. Oil and oxygen are a dangerous combination! Plus, you will have to replace the compressor itself with an oil-less compressor.
How long this system will run your torch will depend on the size of the holding tank and the pressure. The fill time will be limited by how fast you can supply oxygen to the compressor, ie: your oxycon.
Malcolm
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2011-08-14, 4:06pm
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Would it Be Best to just go with the three oxycons?
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2011-08-14, 4:59pm
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Of course, you could do that. The only limiting factor there would be the pressure output of the oxycons.
Since most of us don't rage our torches at full power all the time, a compressor, holding tank, and two oxycons should give you everything you need. Then, if you ever do upgrade your torch, or add a 2nd station to your studio, just add another oxycon to the system.
Malcolm
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2011-08-14, 5:56pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtcoInc
Yes, you can use a standard air compressor as the basis for your system. You will have to clean the tank *COMPLETELY* to remove *ALL* traces of oil and grease. Oil and oxygen are a dangerous combination! Plus, you will have to replace the compressor itself with an oil-less compressor.
Malcolm
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NOT QUITE....
Just any simple air compressor is not safe. You must have a completely oil free compressor (system) .... Pure (or nearly so) oxygen and mixed with oils (from "some" types of compressors) is EXPLOSIVE.... So all components (compressor, tank, and plumbing) has to be complete oil free... This means you can not even use any oil based thread sealers (pipe dope) during assembly...
This can be dangerous territory if you do not know what you are doing.... It's no just a simple throw something together system....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2011-08-14, 8:47pm
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While I did not include the plumbing (which I do agree is important), I thought I was clear that the system (tank and compressor) needed to be completely oil free. Thank you for the additional emphasis.
Malcolm
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2011-08-15, 7:19am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Over on the "Melting Pot"; http://www.talkglass.com/forum/index.php There is quite a bit of information as there seems to be more interest in large volume oxygen storage... Seems to be a trend towards using "home fill" systems as oxygen supply.... "Home fill" oxygen systems tend to be oxycon and compressor all in one unit which just needs a tank "connected" for volume storage....
Here is one such thread...
http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26729
NOTE safety disclaimer in first message, first paragraph.... No fooling around here...
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2011-08-15, 10:11am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
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Glad Dale jumped in with his good advice. Setting up one of these 'low pressure' (60 -100 psi) systems can be quite economical and efficient BUT you need to be somewhat competent and knowlegable in several areas of expertise to do so safely. A 'plug and play' solution might be one of the Onsite Gas Pro-4 units. It puts out, if I recall correctly, 40 lpm at 40 psi. It can be pricey and shipping is not cheap but they work great. Check into it a bit more on the Melting Pot forum for a lot of info. Google Pro-4 and take a look.
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2011-08-25, 3:48pm
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Where could I find purchasing information on the pro series systems? Do they provide both oxygen and compression at a rate to run a torch?
I've heard that the pro-8s cost around $10,000. I'm really not looking to spend more than $1000 on a nice set up though.
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2011-08-25, 4:00pm
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Now part of the Dark Side
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Don't forget that oxy cons and compressors draw significant amounts of electricity, if you have older service you may not be able to support everything electrically. Just food for thought.
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2011-08-25, 4:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonharper
Don't forget that oxy cons and compressors draw significant amounts of electricity, if you have older service you may not be able to support everything electrically. Just food for thought.
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Norr might it save you money over wholesale tanked
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2011-08-26, 9:50am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
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Just google Pro-4 or Pro-8 or Onsite Gas to find info.
The units are made on the east coast of USA and I live in Seattle area, about as far apart as you can get. The total for me when I researched it would have been about $6500.00. At my age I can buy tanked and be very wasteful and not spend that much so I passed.
PJH
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2011-08-26, 9:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alienscience
Would it Be Best to just go with the three oxycons?
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Three Oxycons? Have you safely setup your torch yet? I mean with hose clamps and everything?
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2011-08-28, 6:22pm
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Calling a red flag on larry.
Someone showed me their penis on the talkglass site and it exploded into a flame war. They said it was a joke for me posting too much (which obviously isn't true from what I've posted on this site).
The threads soon became spammed with hardcore porn, and a hoseclamp joke?
My goal is too move past the talkglass conundrum and start up again there but I can't do it if I keep getting pestered. Just a heads up everyone.
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2011-08-29, 8:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alienscience
Calling a red flag on larry.
Someone showed me their penis on the talkglass site and it exploded into a flame war. They said it was a joke for me posting too much (which obviously isn't true from what I've posted on this site).
The threads soon became spammed with hardcore porn, and a hoseclamp joke?
My goal is too move past the talkglass conundrum and start up again there but I can't do it if I keep getting pestered. Just a heads up everyone.
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Actually I think you got banned there, right? Would you start back up under a new name? The hundreds of troll posts and the threads are all still up for anyone interested. My recollection is that you never got past convincing folks that you had installed your torch in any way that was safe. The obvious lack of any care for your own or others safety after many folks tried to help you is what has me concerned about why you are interested in a holding tank system. This is much more complicated and potentially hazardous. A little bit of info can be a very dangerous thing. Again, I am truly concerned that you still have not secured the hose connections on your torch. Is the torch still clamped to a piece of bare plywood across some saw horses? These things should be addressed long before you ask about oxygen systems. If this is "pestering" to you then I am still extremely concerned.
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2011-08-29, 9:39am
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I had a flashback and missed the hose clamp tip. It was literally on for 10 seconds before I went out and bought hardibacker, hose clamps, and flashbacks. It was like a little kid trying to ride a bike, a very flammable bike I might add. But I was sure nothing bad happened. Either way, it seems it's over now and time to move on.
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2011-08-29, 10:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alienscience
It was like a little kid trying to ride a bike, a very flammable bike I might add.
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Kids should NOT play with fire. I see that You still seem to think basic safety is a joke.
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2011-08-29, 4:44pm
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No more than Meat Sandwiches and pornography...
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2011-08-30, 9:19am
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glass crazy
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Join Date: Aug 19, 2011
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I think you need to get a GTT torch they need significantly less oxygen !
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2011-09-01, 10:31am
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Thanks glass, I was wondering the same thing. I think what I'm going to do is use my pre-mix top fire for a while and then upgrade to a GTT. Again, thanks to everyone who has helped me with this and I apologize for any hurt/angry feelings.
Stay safe
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2012-01-07, 7:52pm
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Oh how I have grown...
I cannot believe some of the stuff I type on this internet thing.
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