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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2011-08-06, 7:08am
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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boro on skeleton keys?
Apparently not...
Has anyone successfully attempted boro on a skeleton key? I tried two different keys yesterday, with two different colors, and both of them crumbled off the key while in the kiln. I'm guessing that the coe of the glass and the metal are just WAY too different, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm curious!
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2011-08-06, 7:27am
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judejudejude
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Join Date: Aug 09, 2008
Location: Salt Spring Island BC, Canada
Posts: 96
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boro and skeleton keys
i will try one this weekend and get back to you. don't know why it shouldn't work. i have about 20 skeleton keys and some look to be different metals and will try a few types. good luck if you try again.
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2011-08-06, 7:52am
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Still makin' flowers...
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Join Date: Feb 26, 2006
Location: Oregon...
Posts: 2,388
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Are you sure the keys were high end steel? I've tried a few and they've worked pretty well. Try using a REALLY thick coating of bead separator.
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2011-08-06, 9:05am
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HannahRachel
Are you sure the keys were high end steel? I've tried a few and they've worked pretty well. Try using a REALLY thick coating of bead separator.
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Not sure what you mean by high end steel? I was making the bead directly on the key with no release-is that my issue? I've done it before with soft glass without the crumbling bead issue. I think I will have a chance to play again today, so I'll try again, with and without bead release.
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2011-08-06, 10:29am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,723
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Yep! That be the cause. The differences in COE between steel and the glass when laid directly on the key is so different that expansion/contraction is breaking the beads. Boro just makes the differences greater. I'm really supprised the soft glass didn't break as well.
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2011-08-06, 10:53am
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Angie09
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2009
Posts: 1,788
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What do you use to put the bead release on the key????
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2011-08-06, 11:53am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 21, 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,807
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Just hold be key and dip it as you would a mandrel. then you can dip part way in water and wipe off the excess so that only the middle has release on it.
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Lynda
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2011-08-06, 1:15pm
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Angie09
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2009
Posts: 1,788
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DUHHHH!!! Guess I should have been able to figure that out by myself ... but thanks Lynda!!!
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2011-08-06, 1:34pm
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Still makin' flowers...
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Join Date: Feb 26, 2006
Location: Oregon...
Posts: 2,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venessa
Not sure what you mean by high end steel?
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I purchased a few "vintage" keys that I think were aluminum or some s**t grade stuff. The keys basically melted the minute they got within 20 yards of the flame. That said, its the glass you have breaking, not the key, so my bet is the bead separator will help.
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2011-08-06, 2:31pm
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HannahRachel
I purchased a few "vintage" keys that I think were aluminum or some s**t grade stuff. The keys basically melted the minute they got within 20 yards of the flame. That said, its the glass you have breaking, not the key, so my bet is the bead separator will help.
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The ones I used yesterday were some that I got at a garage sale-12 of them for $1, couldn't pass em up-and they were a bit rusted when I got them, so no aluminum. Quick run in the tumbler fixed that problem! I will try the bead release next time and see how I fare. Thanks!!
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2011-08-06, 7:26pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 07, 2006
Location: Scappoose, OR
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Angela Kane To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. -One of a kind boro frit blends!
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2011-08-06, 7:48pm
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"Sinners have soul too"
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Join Date: Jun 26, 2005
Location: The beachy part of So Cal
Posts: 4,258
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I've done it both ways... dipped and undipped. So far, so good.
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Donna
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2011-08-06, 10:17pm
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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Hmmm...could just be me lol. All I know is that when I opened up the kiln, there was a couple of keys surrounded by bead crumbs. I'm not gonna give up yet though!! Didn't get a chance to torch today, hopefully tomorrow though.
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2011-08-07, 8:36am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 29, 2009
Posts: 1,958
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I just want to throw this out there as I don't know for sure if it applies to what you are doing.
Within the coe's there is different viscosities meaning even though they are considered to be compatible they seem to take more heat to melt and stiffen out of the flame faster than others. An example in soft glass would be ivory vrs black or clear. (anyone who has made the classic tiger bead has experienced some cracking issues especially if the base was the ivory and not black). Within the boro family you have the same thing, and if you throw in the metal from the key you have another expansion and contraction issue.
So if one color combo doesn't work try another also do some 'flame annealing' (I know you can't anneal in the flame) but what I mean by that is even out the temperature of the piece by going in and out of the flame keeping an eye on the color temperature. In the flame until it just starts to glow take it out of the flame until it disappears then back into the flame. For a small bead like what you would be making on the keys is approximately 5 seconds in the flame 5 seconds out doing this several times. What this does is evens out the inside temperature with the outside temperature before it is put into the kiln. Hope it works out for you cause those keys are cute.
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2011-08-07, 3:36pm
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Lady Firebird
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Join Date: Jun 14, 2005
Location: Marietta, GA USA
Posts: 284
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I use boro to make beads on keys all the time, both encased with clear and not. Usually I use bead release, but not always; not using it hasn't resulted in crumbling beads IME. I even make hearts on the keys, which means much more glass, more time in the flame shaping, etc. There is one color that has given me trouble but only with the hearts -- Northstar Loki's Lipstick (which is a real shame, because with its color it would make FABULOUS hearts).
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Julia
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GTT Scorpion torch & Regalia oxycon
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2011-08-17, 8:55pm
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aka Deborah Spence
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Join Date: Mar 25, 2006
Location: Eagle River, Alaska
Posts: 239
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Could the problem be in not keeping the key hot enough while making the bead?
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2011-08-20, 10:06am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassFirenze
Could the problem be in not keeping the key hot enough while making the bead?
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As others have already explained earlier in the thread this is a hit or miss proposition depending on the glass and keys used and how it is done. You may get away with it and then again you may not. There may be ways to optimize the fit but the end result is that you have a stressy bead that may break later if it survives annealing. I would suggest that you always use bead release.
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2011-08-24, 1:13pm
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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I made one with bead release, and it survived!! Weird thing was, when I got it out of the kiln to clean it, the bead came completely loose from the bead release-none stuck to the bead at all-it was all stuck to the key (not that I'm complaining, it was pretty easy to clean off the key).
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2011-08-24, 1:27pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 18, 2011
Posts: 126
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i have a couple skeleton keys and i use boro
how do you guys hold the keys to apply the boro? tweezers dont seem like they would work very wellim just curious how you hold the key without burning the fingers
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2011-08-24, 1:33pm
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"Sinners have soul too"
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Join Date: Jun 26, 2005
Location: The beachy part of So Cal
Posts: 4,258
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I use a ring hemostat... long one's so there is enough straight metal to hold on to.
Shorter ones and you have to hold on where the handle v's off.
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Donna
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2011-08-24, 1:35pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 18, 2011
Posts: 126
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do those have the little locking clamp on them?
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2011-08-24, 1:40pm
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...displaced ocean lover
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Join Date: Sep 22, 2009
Location: Sadly about 7000 miles from King Kamehameha Hwy
Posts: 1,661
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I use a special mandrel for the keys, Keys4Life
Also, I've used 96 coe and 104 without a crack ever. (knocking on wood)
Someone else mentioned that maybe you didn't keep the key hot and that would be my first guess. Those keys take a while (compared to a mandrel) to get hot enough to even accept the glass so it would lose heat (suck it out of the bead) quickly as well.
That's my 2 cents...never used bead release either. I have noticed that brass keys seem to sort of release the bead by themselves. Not sure what that's all about!
Good luck, seems like you've got it figured out!
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2011-08-24, 1:48pm
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"Sinners have soul too"
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Join Date: Jun 26, 2005
Location: The beachy part of So Cal
Posts: 4,258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keys4life
do those have the little locking clamp on them?
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Yes... Mine have loops at the end as well. I think there is a better grip with them than just straight tips.
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Donna
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2011-08-24, 3:51pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venessa
I made one with bead release, and it survived!! Weird thing was, when I got it out of the kiln to clean it, the bead came completely loose from the bead release-none stuck to the bead at all-it was all stuck to the key (not that I'm complaining, it was pretty easy to clean off the key).
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That is why I suggested it. The release creates a small amount of space between the steel key and the glass. This should allow for the differences in expansion and contraction that exist between the two dissimilar materials.
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2011-08-24, 3:53pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Blaty
That's my 2 cents...never used bead release either. I have noticed that brass keys seem to sort of release the bead by themselves. Not sure what that's all about!
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The key material and the glass expand and contract with changes in temperature at different rates and that is what often cracks the beads. In the case of this key it is obviously working in your favor.
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2011-08-24, 4:43pm
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...displaced ocean lover
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Join Date: Sep 22, 2009
Location: Sadly about 7000 miles from King Kamehameha Hwy
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Larry, you're right!
And it's lucky for me that it works b/c that's what I put all my Key-Key's on!
I have noticed that some keys tend to bubble the glass to the point that I can't add any glass. Too many huge bubbles. (is the glass trapping little holes in the metal to create the
bubbles)
However, I did have one that had just a few bubbles like a bead that one might have added baking soda to! It's a cute one though =D
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2011-08-24, 8:26pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Blaty
Larry, you're right!
And it's lucky for me that it works b/c that's what I put all my Key-Key's on!
I have noticed that some keys tend to bubble the glass to the point that I can't add any glass. Too many huge bubbles. (is the glass trapping little holes in the metal to create the
bubbles)
However, I did have one that had just a few bubbles like a bead that one might have added baking soda to! It's a cute one though =D
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Are they aluminum? I would stay away from them because Aluminum melts around 1000F. Are you cleaning the key surface first with a solvent? May help with the bubbles.
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2011-08-25, 6:41am
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Is it May yet?
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 4,716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keys4life
i have a couple skeleton keys and i use boro
how do you guys hold the keys to apply the boro? tweezers dont seem like they would work very wellim just curious how you hold the key without burning the fingers
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I use a hollow mandrel-just put the rounded end of the key into the end of a hollow mandrel, sometimes gotta tap it into the mandrel a bit to keep it from wiggling, but it works really well.
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2011-09-22, 12:59pm
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Type ZZZ personality
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Join Date: Aug 15, 2005
Location: Chicago western 'burbs
Posts: 5,528
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I've done boro on keys with and without release with no problem.
I hold my keys using a turnbuckle rod and some nuts and bolts. Works great.
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2011-09-23, 10:50am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 23, 2007
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 1,332
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Old keys can be brass, nickel, steel and anything in between. Alloys. I know some people who won't use one that won't stick to a magnet, but I really like brass keys myself. Have not yet tried with boro, but hey! Maybe this weekend. I want to try out that new Whiteout Paul made... he's always trying to get the white juuuuuuust right.
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