What is Devardi glass???

[Rob]

conditions in India range from very poor conditions to modern facilities. India has made a push for growth and in many cases this has been successful. They do have many modern factories, chemical plants and companies, they also have many that have very poor conditions. The phrase "conditions were similar to the rest of India" is fairly meaningless because of this.

[pam]

Perhaps that is so, Rob, which is why I thought it important to find the location of the factory. Areas are mentioned in those reports of specific areas where the factories were very, very bad. I thought that might help us make a determination, however that information was not forthcoming. I also don't know that there are any glass factories in India that are modern, but I certainly would be interested to find out.

Kalera, thank you for letting me know that I wasn't really getting senile!

[Kalera]

The way the system in India works is that 30% are relatively wealthy and 70% are impoverished. There are tech companies that make millions PER DAY, and their high-end (think call center) employees earn very good livings... but their maintenance crews earn just a few dollars a day. The inequity is stunning, and until there's consumer pressure for them to correct the inequity, they're simply not going to. They have no reason to. More money to the worker equals lower profits, and without economic pressure to do so, very few companies will do anything that detracts from their bottom line.

[kathleen milligan]

Originally Posted by Kalera

I understand that Daniel has gone through and deleted or edited all of their posts.

I was the person who asked how she knew, and whether it was based on the word of the factory management or whether she'd talked to a third party who had visited the factory. That was not answered.

Kalera, I remember part of what she said about this. She said that the factory was visited/screened by someone she knew, and she said 'call it a screening company'. I remember that because I wondered what the company did when it wasn't screening factories.

It has been rather confusing to follow given all the deleted/edited stuff.

[ruca]

Originally Posted by kathleen milligan

Kalera, I remember part of what she said about this. She said that the factory was visited/screened by someone she knew, and she said 'call it a screening company'. I remember that because I wondered what the company did when it wasn't screening factories.

It has been rather confusing to follow given all the deleted/edited stuff.

yeah, i remember that, too -- i actually said this a few pages back but i think it might've been overlooked.

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=642

although from what has been revealed about dev overseas, i'm not sure what to think about it. that must be one screwed up 'screening company.'

[Rob]

Originally Posted by ruca

although from what has been revealed about dev overseas, i'm not sure what to think about it. that must be one screwed up 'screening company.'

I remember a scandal about a company in China that was taking kick backs from the factories it was investigating. Now that really proves nothing in this situation but it makes me think...

factory in poor country, corruption rife (India is full of corruption) very easy to pay the person who comes to investigate to make a favorable report...

[ruca]

Originally Posted by Rob

I remember a scandal about a company in China that was taking kick backs from the factories it was investigating. Now that really proves nothing in this situation but it makes me think...

factory in poor country, corruption rife (India is full of corruption) very easy to pay the person who comes to investigate to make a favorable report...

that's very, very sad.

[NMLinda]

Change, in my opinion, is best accomplished through direct leverage. How big is the non-Indian glass market for rod glass? Is it a big enough percentage relative to Devardi's overall product demand that we could even get their attention?

There would have to be a strong desire on Devardi's part to want to sell to our market before they would take our ethical concerns - or even product improvement concerns - into consideration. If we aren't a big enough market, we have no leverage and they will have little or no motivation to listen to us. If we are, we have an opportunity to effect change, our leverage points being importers like Daniel and Natasha.

We aren't limited to Devardi, by the way. Perhaps there are other glass manufacturers with better working conditions to pick from if we, as a glass community, want to expand our global palette and feed our desire for alternatives.

So...what do we, as a community want to do?

Are we interested enough in Devardi's glass to see if we can influence their business behavior, whether product quality or working conditions or both? If so, perhaps we should repair our relationship with Daniel and Natasha to see if they are interested in or willing to pursue this with us. Do we want to pursue other options? If so, perhaps we would like to give Daniel and Natasha the chance to work this with us, as well as some of our other valued suppliers. Are we happy with the current suite of US, Italian, German, Japanese, and Chinese glass manufacturers available to us now? If so, then perhaps it's time for us to go our separate ways with respect to Devardi, as guided by our individual beliefs.

Just my thoughts.

Best regards to all
Linda

[miahawk]

Originally Posted by squid

We had slavery too, but that doesn't mean it should be tolerated in another country. Children should not be sold into servitude/slavery in ANY country, regardless of their economic standing in the world.

thanks for saying what I was thinking, squid.

Originally Posted by Lizabeads

Thinking of the economy being the way it is we here will see more children working. In order to pay bills and eat some will have to have everyone it their household that can find a job working. It is a scary situation and it's not going to get better overnight.

I think this is what is considered a straw man, Elizabeth. in tough times kids take jobs, but they still have the legal right to go to school, and there are a lot of legal protections here even when a kid takes a job picking berries in the summer time to earn a few bucks. likening our kids to working after school and during the summer to indentured children in India simply doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Lizabeads

Kalera, Just how do you purpose to make things better if you don't purchase from them? So there ARE NOT children working there? I saw the pics and BTW got no trojan either. We have people right here working in just as dangerous, dirty conditions. Just about every older worker I use to work with has died from asbestosis. Some got lead poisioning and it made them blind and their kidneys failed. Both very slow horrifying deaths. I just don't understand how you will help someone if you don't purchase from them and then slowly retrain how they should think about it. No it won't happen overnight, but you have to start somewhere.

this is also a straw man. our country had very exploitative practices at one time. laws changed and workers are protected against work related risks to a much higher degree (not perfect, accidents happen, I'm not saying we get it right all the time) and those companies who didn't want to comply simply moved their operations overseas to exploit other people. saying it used to happen here certainly doesn't justify it happening anywhere else.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by NMLinda

We aren't limited to Devardi, by the way. Perhaps there are other glass manufacturers with better working conditions to pick from if we, as a glass community, want to expand our global palette and feed our desire for alternatives.

So...what do we, as a community want to do?

Best regards to all
Linda

hmmm interesting post.

are you thinking perhaps a co-op effort, find a factory improve our pallet, improve the factory, keep it artist controlled?

[Kalera]

If the sellers of Devardi are willing to try to use their buying power to leverage improved working conditions/wages, I would be interested in supporting them. I'd support a fair-trade co-op effort, too.

[miahawk]

Originally Posted by Kalera

If the sellers of Devardi are willing to try to use their buying power to leverage improved working conditions/wages, I would be interested in supporting them. I'd support a fair-trade co-op effort, too.

me too.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kalera

If the sellers of Devardi are willing to try to use their buying power to leverage improved working conditions/wages, I would be interested in supporting them. I'd support a fair-trade co-op effort, too.

I'm finding myself interested in the fair-trade co-op idea.

[Kalera]

I have no idea how someone would go about starting something like that in another country... do you know anything about it?

[kathleen milligan]

Originally Posted by Kalera

If the sellers of Devardi are willing to try to use their buying power to leverage improved working conditions/wages, I would be interested in supporting them. I'd support a fair-trade co-op effort, too.

My inner child would love to buy many, many pounds of these new colors, such as the semi-opaques- that dark marine semi-opaque looks so pretty I can hardly stand it. The butterscotch. The dark rose transparent. The burgundy. However, I have held back because of... well, my inner parent. I had a dark fear that there really was indentured service involved. Slavery. Bad working conditions for pay, I can rationalize to an extent. I can't rationalize away owning people.

If the sellers of Devardi would add x dollars per pound- even double the price- as a bribe to the factory to phase out indentured servants, that is, slaves, I think our community would buy an awful lot of glass to accomplish this. Wouldn't that be cool? Couldn't we feel so good about it that we would let go of any bad feelings that have come up? I know I'm naive, but please don't everyone jump on me, or Kalera will dissect you with persistent logic.

[Jasio]

Originally Posted by Kalera

If the sellers of Devardi are willing to try to use their buying power to leverage improved working conditions/wages, I would be interested in supporting them. I'd support a fair-trade co-op effort, too.

Us too

[miahawk]

sorry Elizabeth, I mistakenly accused you of using straw man arguments. I think they're actually tu quoque.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kalera

I have no idea how someone would go about starting something like that in another country... do you know anything about it?

I'm assuming it would have to be started here, capital raised (perhaps by selling shares), approach a factory, develop color lines, etc. Could be done in a few formats.

I'm suspecting it would not be too far off of what CIM has already done.

this is however simply a guess, but a guess based on my past business experience and college business courses.

may be difficult but it is likely well with-in our capabilities.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by kathleen milligan

or Kalera will dissect you with persistent logic.

OK, but seriously, what you said above about raising the price and using the extra money as leverage to entice the factory to improve conditions would be something I could be completely on board with. I don't know if Dev Overseas would go for that, because it looks like a pretty big operation, but I bet it's doable somewhere.

A lot of people have said they'd pay more for a situation like that, and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Kalera]

Honestly, I don't think it would take very much to bribe companies away from using indentured servants. From what I've read, the average price to buy a child or teenager is only $35!

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kalera

Honestly, I don't think it would take very much to bribe companies away from using indentured servants. From what I've read, the average price to buy a child or teenager is only $35!

prices are so low in India that it is entirely possible to do. It however would need to be a factory small enough that the lampworking community represented a huge increase to their business. or a small start up simply to produce our glass.

[kathleen milligan]

Originally Posted by Rob

prices are so low in India that it is entirely possible to do. It however would need to be a factory small enough that the lampworking community represented a huge increase to their business. or a small start up simply to produce our glass.

Okay, this sounds sick, but I'm just brainstorming here people, what if we could pay off the amount of the indenture as we buy glass for the x extra dollars per pound... in effect, buying the workers back from the factory... and then free them? What would be the effect? Would the worker just re-indenture themselves, if that is what they are accustomed to? Would they then be allowed to work for wages? How could we have oversight of something like this?

[Rob]

Originally Posted by kathleen milligan

Okay, this sounds sick, but I'm just brainstorming here people, what if we could pay off the amount of the indenture as we buy glass for the x extra dollars per pound... in effect, buying the workers back from the factory... and then free them? What would be the effect? Would the worker just re-indenture themselves, if that is what they are accustomed to? Would they then be allowed to work for wages? How could we have oversight of something like this?

We would have the control by getting in on the ground floor of a small factory or start up.

We could not risk being part of human trafficking. Even though the intentions would be good...

also an indentured minor would have few choices when released save return to family (sold again?), remain at the factory (realistically no change), or become homeless beggar. Is there another possibility?

[miahawk]

that's a band-aid that won't work, Kathleen, unless you're there to escort the child to an orphanage so its parents don't just sell it back to the factory again. basically you'd just be throwing extra money to the factories without giving them any reason to change.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by miahawk

that's a band-aid that won't work, Kathleen, unless you're there to escort the child to an orphanage so its parents don't just sell it back to the factory again. basically you'd just be throwing extra money to the factories without giving them any reason to change.

Sadly, I agree.

[kathleen milligan]

Originally Posted by Rob

We would have the control by getting in on the ground floor of a small factory or start up.

We could not risk being part of human trafficking. Even though the intentions would be good...

also an indentured minor would have few choices when released save return to family (sold again?), remain at the factory (realistically no change), or become homeless beggar. Is there another possibility?

Hmm. If they stay at the factory, it would still be a change because the factory would have to pay them, at least. I mean, that's a start. Free first, better conditions second. Or, Maybe they could become part of the free trade coop that was mentioned?

[NMLinda]

Kathleen, while a very noble thought, from what I've learned through my husband, who does business in India, it would be all but impossible to accomplish or enforce. I think it's more likely to be effective if we convince the owners that it is in their best interest to change their business practices.

Rob, I hadn't actually thought about a co-op, but it's an interesting idea.

Linda

[Rob]

Originally Posted by kathleen milligan

Hmm. If they stay at the factory, it would still be a change because the factory would have to pay them, at least. I mean, that's a start. Free first, better conditions second. Or, Maybe they could become part of the free trade coop that was mentioned?

Remember company stores? if the factories have to pay workers who have no place to go or eat then the factory the factory will start the company store model. On paper it is a change, but in reality if you owe more to your employer to live, then you earn, you are trapped.

a fair-trade co-op would need to have the control to say no to both cases from the start, no bonded workers, and no company store. Then it will not be an issue. that requires that the co-op represent enough cash flow.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by NMLinda

Kathleen, while a very noble thought, from what I've learned through my husband, who does business in India, it would be all but impossible to accomplish or enforce. I think it's more likely to be effective if we convince the owners that it is in their best interest to change their business practices.

Rob, I hadn't actually thought about a co-op, but it's an interesting idea.

Linda

Really? I was sure that was what you were suggesting, organizing our buying power to get the glass we want made under conditions we can accept.

I do not believe from my experience that it would be possible to enforce unless we were on the ground level with a factory- ie. we were providing in part the funds necessary to grow and do business. This is however not an impossible goal.


added: the most difficult part would be finding an experienced glass maker to oversee production. this however is still not impossible.

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by glasshouse

<snip>My father is an art glassblower. He started in 1970. Back then, to blow glass, you had to build your own furnaces, bench, glory hole.
Mix your own batch, make your own colors. There is a lot more to it than has been posted here.

My dad's furnace was unbelievably primitive. He was making glass the way that it's been made for hundreds of years. I've learned so much
about glass from him that I haven't found anywhere else.

The quality of the glass my dad made was astounding. He won many awards, Best Of Show in the Mill Valley Art Festival, a commission for
his goblets (300 of them) for the DeYoung Museum in SF. All made in his tiny backyard studio, in a gas-fired furnace with just the
very basics for melting glass. Having a state of the art studio does not necessarily translate into having better glass, just as having a
primitive studio doesn't mean your glass will be inferior.

Think he wants to go to india & start a glass co-op?