Burning clear now?

[Shane]

Ok so we started out on MAPP cylinders and our clear came out great. We went to bulk propane two days ago and now clear is coming out "burnt" from the kiln. We've tried working farther out in the flame, turning down the bulk tank & turning down the torch. We were burning opaline colors until we moved farther out of the flame. With the MAPP gas I was real close to the flame with the torch turned down just a tad, no problems. With the propane...you get too close to that flame, it'll scorch the glass and drip off the mandrel in a hurry. We bought one of those Blue Rhino bulk tanks. Has anyone else had problems with these or are we doing something seriously wrong with propane? I don't have the funds right now to upgrade to Propylene (100+ for the tank then to get it filled) and the place I have locally doesn't have the best reputation of returning calls or customer service when you're standing there. Any ideas, comments, questions, etc would be appreciated. At this point I'm wasting clear like crazy.

Oh and can we use the same hose for Propylene that we're using for Propane?

[Peach Blossom Beads]

You may have a crappy tank with crud in the bottom. Those tanks are used a LOT. Go buy a new tank and have it filled. I'd do this anyway. It'll probably help imensely.

[Shane]

I was afraid somone would say that. We thought about buying our own tank but then took the cheap route. Thanks for the advice.

[aimee]

And if it's just straight propane, it doesn't burn at clean as mapp/propylene. So that could also be part of the problem.

[Firebrand Beads]

Are you using any oxygen at all?

[Shane]

No oxycon or bottle. Wish we had the money to have gotten a better torch from the get-go. Hindsight is 20/20.

Feeling very discouraged, sorry if this post came off wrong.

[lunamoonshadow]

You *don't* want to use your propane tank "partly open"--those tanks are designed to be opened all the way, you're apt to freeze the valve up if you're running it just partially opened (ask me how I know this....) & then it's awful to try & shut down the tank--the valve inside is apt to stick open even though you've closed the top!

Just adjust the flame @ the torch end.

There's a different "sweet spot" for propane vs. mapp & it's in a completely different spot in the flame--you sort of need to find the right places in the flame all over again when you switch fuels--once you do, you'll stop toasting your clear/white/etc. If you figured out opalino, I'd say you're already finding some of that! If you're scorching the glass & "dripping it off the mandrel", you're simply rushing it & you'd be doing exactly the same thing with a hotter torch. I can burn clear just as effectively when I'm playing @ the studio on the "big" torches as I can playing at home on my hothead--actually, I can do it faster & sootier on the bigger torches if I'm not careful!--the key isn't the price or size of the torch, it's finding the right spot in the flame for each glass & on each torch & with each kind of fuel &/or delivery system.

[Shane]

Well we tried again last night, same results. Tried turning the tank down, fully open, turning HH up and down, moving glass out, in, above and below the flame. 1 out of 7 turned out ok. At this point I'm considering biting the bullet and getting a oxycon and minor. We're just wasting glass at this point. Very very frustrated. Everything started out so well too (on MAPP gas). I'm also concerned that IF we get the oxycon and minor that the problem will still be there due to the propane we have. I guess we would have to get our own tank and have it filled beforehand to see if that's the problem. Any other suggestions?

[lunamoonshadow]

Wait--you made 7 beads? & 1 came out right? but you changed basically *everything* on *every* bead? You need to pick ONE color (say, white--it's easy to see when it's hot enough & easy to see when it's starting to burn, because you can see the soot in it--at least I usually can--I started off with just safety glasses on my hothead & could see the soot forming just fine when I was burning my glass ) & then start off with opening the tank fully, turning the torch *down* & practicing just plain white spacers until you find the NEW sweet spot in the flame.

Propane doesn't burn "exactly the same" as Mapp. (somewhere on here there's a thread with the explanations) & the "sweet spot" is in a different place when you switch fuels on the hothead. You just need to find it again, because it's NOT where it "used to be".

Everything I'm reading suggests everytime you're having issues with one bead, rather than changing *one* thing (say, the position in the flame--which is most likely 99% of your problem) to try to resolve it, you're changing 4 or 5 things & expecting magic results. That's not going to make anything better or easier or faster--seriously. Soft glass doesn't like to be rushed, or burnt. It's SLOW, PICKY GLASS. And hotheads aren't majorly adjustable torches--you can turn them down to "less than dragon flame", but really, it's just about getting out in the flame, away from the torch head & finding the "sweet spot" & then melting the glass slowly.

If you really think it's a tank of remarkably, unusually filthy propane, then take it & ask for an exchange--tell them the valve isn't working right, or that it's acting weird (since it is) & ask for a swap. Or just pay for an exchange--last I checked, it's still around $20 to do a swap out even at the most expensive places (or if you've got a BBQ, just go swap with the BBQ's tank!)

[Shane]

We don't have a lot of white left so we used clear. I have to believe it's a horrible tank. My wife thought she found the sweet spot cause hers were coming out great, at first, when I had her try something in white, pale sky blue or clear....same thing. I went and purchased a new propane tank last night. I'l get it filled today and see what happens. If this doesn't work I'm moving up to a bench burner and oxycon. Transparents in general seem to hold up pretty good but everything else gets "soot streaks". I practiced with nasty color rods too to find the sweet spot. Right when the flame starts to come off the rod is ok but not yet hot enough to melt it into a gather. It you move it in slight enough to start forming the gather you start to see streaking. Again, it's a Rhino propane tank, like you pickup at the gas station. I got this one from Lowes so I know it's recycled over and over. Hopefully a new tank will do the trick. I just got some stuff from Flamekissed (Hi Irene!) and really want to surprise the DW for Mothers Day. If it doesn't work....she gets a late Mothers Day.

[lunamoonshadow]

I'd try melting without Didy glasses. Put on some clear safety glasses, so your eyes are protected & then try melting a few beads using the soda-flare to find where you need to be with this fuel. It's helped me immensely when I've switched torches (I keep some clear lenses in my glass box)--I switch back & forth between my hothead @ home & duel fuel torches @ the studio. If I watch the soda-flare for a couple spacers I can find where I need to be in the flame--as soon as the glass starts to "flare", I know it's hot enough to start to melt the glass, & particularly with the hothead, I know if I move it any closer to the torch head, I'm going to get soot! My tendency is always to drift in too close to the torch tip & soot up the bead & watching the soda flare for a few beads reminds me where I belong. If it's bright & huge, I know I'm WAY too close & I'm toasting the glass--I just want a little bit to know I'm just warm enough to "melt" & not so hot I'm incinerating the glass.

[Shane]

Yeah I do it both ways too. My wife never uses the ACE glasses. It just kills me to spend 4 hours burning clear trying to find something that works. When it started happening to the DW she stopped trying to tell me I was doing something wrong. It seems like the more we use that tank the worse the effects get. It started out with just the clear getting all sooty, more opaline and normal colors are too. I'm going to fill the new tank today and try that out. If it does the same thing I'm not sure what else to do but go to a Minor with oxycon. So very very frustrating. I dont want to give up so soon but it's wasting a lot of glass.

[Tache]

Hey ladies and gents! Wife chiming in here. Luna, you are telling him the exact same thing I've been trying to say for the past few days. He needs patience and to work farther out in the flame because I'm using the same torch and the same fuel and I'm doing ok.

Except that now I'm not. My beads have started sooting up, too. Colors that I've worked with many times and made beautiful beads out of are getting black streaks.

I'm working without didy glasses. I need to be able to see where I'm at in relation to the flame. I can feel the flame hit the glass before I can see it, but it still helps me know when I'm getting in too close. I'm working about as far out as possible in the flame and still be able to melt the glass. It takes me a good 10 to 15 minutes to get the glass warmed up enough to get started and shaping a bead...well lets just say I only get one or two done in an evening.

I have to admit I'm even more frustrated than he is, if at all possible. I've been trucking right along, only changing fuel type and did ok up until the last couple of sessions.

A few things he's not told you about:

The black streaks are only on the edges of the beads. When we're working with any color other than clear there are black streaks only on the edges of the beads. The middle looks like it's supposed to.

Pitting. My root beer has started pitting like crazy. My first four or five beads that I made look great! The last couple look like I did a really bad etch job on them.

I really hate to go through the expense of buying a bigger torch that I may not be able to master when I can't seem to get the hang of this one, but at this point I'm at a complete loss. Thank you so much for all your help and patience. We're taking all of your suggestions one at a time and we'll see what happens. Wish us luck!

[nickandryan]

Are you on a HH? I am, and I use propane, I had a lot of problems when I first switched over from MAPP gas, but it is all about where you work in the flame, and how high you have the torch set, and the clear you use.

I use clear in almost every bead I make, and I have soot in 1 out of every 10-20 beads, and most of the time I can pick off the small amount of scum and still salvage the bead.

I open the valve (on the tank) about 1/4 turn- not all the way, just enough so you hear the gas enter the hose. Turn your torch on and then turn it down, lower than you think it needs to be, make sure the flame is "purple" blue, not "teal" blue. Then work up in the flame, probably about 3- 31/2" from the torch head.

Then, as a last tip, I switched from Moretti Clear to Vetrofond Clear, and I have few problems now. When I have the tank filled, I leave it set for a day to allow the gas to settle, I swear if I make beads right away, I have more of a soot problem. I also have my hose elevated, halfway between the propane tank and the torch head, I heard this allows the "odorant" to stay in the tank and not get sucked up into the hose, it may work, it certainly doesn't hurt.

Anyways, I had about given up on the whole lampwork thing, but these 3 steps now allow me to make clear, soot free beads- hope t his helps!

Laura

[Shane]

Yep on a HH! Just got the new tank filled so hopefully that will make the difference. I love MAPP gas but can't keep the eight dollar a day habit going. And I know I've been farther out then you suggested and still had this problem. It very very weird that one bead will make it to completion and others won't and all at the end of the flame, same setting on the torch. Trial and error I suppose. We've had several great tips so far, something is gonna work eventually. No matter what I'm not getting rid of our HH.

[Shane]

SUCCESS!!! It was the Rhino Blue tank of propane! Thanks for everyone's help and advice. Our clear is perfect again.

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Originally Posted by Shane

SUCCESS!!! It was the Rhino Blue tank of propane! Thanks for everyone's help and advice. Our clear is perfect again.

See? I told ya! I never answer unless I KNOW my answer is true. You could have been making pretty beads 2-3 days ago! LOL!

I'm so glad it worked. Have fun and post some of the beadies! (something I'm guilty of never doing... Hate taking pics).

[Tache]

Peach, you're a peach!

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Originally Posted by Tache

Peach, you're a peach!

Wow! Thank you. And right back atcha!

[CelesteK]

Also be aware that the weather is going to affect your pressure and your flame. We're still getting temperature fluctuations of thirty degrees or so. Some of those finicky colors I work in the morning--early--and have no problem. Work the same color later in the day when the sun has shone on my tank and they get overcooked. Finicky colors--any super pale transparent and most pinks. The easiest colors I've found to work with are very pale amber, ivory, periwinkle, pea green, lemon yellow. Amethyst isn't bad and most of the other darker transparents aren't too bad. Teal and aquamarine will turn copper colored it they get too hot.

Celeste

[Tache]

Thanks for the heads up on the temperture fluctuations, Celeste. Is there anything we can do to prevent this? Our tank is enclosed in one of those garden hose box thingies and in a relatively shady spot, but any little bit helps, right?

I wish I had read this reply last night about finicky colors. Where oh where were you when I needed warning about turquoise? I thought I was on a bad acid trip watching that stuff do it's thing, then I remembered I don't do drugs.

Thanks so much to the rest of you for all your tips and advice! We've actually tried most of them and are much more successful as a result. Pop over into the gallery if you want to see the fabulous colors my husband pulled out of Mountain Honey (on a Hot Head!). We honestly couldn't have done it without this thread.