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| Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2007-08-29, 8:46am
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Master Procrastinator
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,345
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Knight Bullet Burner or Bethlehem Barracuda.
I just took my 1st lampworking class at beadfest and fell in love  . I'm getting an M20 concentrator and need advice on a torch. I have a minor, and though I've been told you can work Boro on a minor, after working on a Carlysle mini in the class I just know that the minor isn't going to cut it. I also like to make large pendants. I'm debating between the Knight Bullet Burner and a Bethlehem Barracuda. Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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Lea
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2007-08-29, 8:56am
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
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I don't think your M20 will power the Cuda at 100%. I don't know enough about the Knight. I am interested in what the experts have to say too!
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Hayley
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2007-08-29, 9:10am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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Bullet. End of story. The Bethlehem is less efficient, produces less heat, and costs $250 more. Another torch you may want to consider is the Carlisle Hellcat, which is more expensive than the Bullet, but less than the Bethlehem. I think they are around $800 MSRP, but you can find them for varying prices. We are getting ready to start selling them ourselves. Not sure yet what we're going to be selling them for.
However, none will run at 100% on that concentrator. I ran a Hellcat at BeadFest (virtually the same torch as a Bullet) on three M-20 concentrators, and it ran pretty close to 100%. I could get as much flame on it as I could on the teaching torches (Hellcats as well) that were on tanked oxygen. I have only run a Bullet on tanked oxygen. I ran Brent's Barracuda on two M-20's and it ran well, but not 100%.
Another option is running your center fire off a concentrator, and your outer flame off tanked oxygen. The Hellcat comes set up that way. The Bullet you can get either way. To run a Barracuda like that it costs an extra $310. So if you choose to go that way, by the time you buy the torch ($795), the base ($100) and the quad manifold ($310) you have spent over $1200. Almost twice the price of a Bullet.
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2007-08-29, 9:32am
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Master Procrastinator
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
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Thanks Cosmo. That's sort of the way I was leaning. I've been doing some research & hear, like you say that it might not work at 100% with the M20, but that's about all I can afford & would rather not get into the tanked O2. My husband would have a fit if I bring in one more piece of apparatus or gas supply. Though I do make rather large pendants, I have no plans on making marbles. I'm mainly planning on getting a more powerful torch so that I don't have to do this again any time soon. So the plan is to use the center flame most of the time anyway. Do you think that this would be OK then with the M20. I just can't swing a larger generator right now. I'm currently using a minor & a 5 LPM medical O2 concentrator so I feel that upgrading should provide me with sufficient heat for boro.
Also, another question, I was going to sell my minor to help pay for the new equipment, but can I still melt soft glass with the bullet burner or is it too hot for soft glass?
I was not in your class, but did see you in the halls & elevator a couple of times. I would have loved to take your class, but had a wedding that weekend in Philly so had to schedule classes around that. I took Sandy Seaman's boro class. I don't know how your classes went, but her class was comprised mostly of newbies that only learned soft glass the day before. I think it was too much for them to learn both in 1 weekend, but I had a blast! Can't wait till next year.
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Lea
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2007-08-29, 9:46am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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The center fire of the Hellcat is a Mini CC, which you used in class. The center fire of a Bullet is a Little Dragon, which is virtually identical to a Mini CC. I don't know the whole story but Chris from Carlisle told me a little about it. The people that make the Knight torches used to work for Carlisle. That's why the torches are so similar.
But, to answer your question, yes the center fire would be fine for soft glass. We use minors to teach on in our studio, but I got a Little Dragon a few months ago as we are looking at larger torches. I've been using it a lot for both borosilicate and soft glass, and I think it works great for either one. The same goes for the Mini CC.
So your concentrator would run the center fire just fine. And, later on, if you find you are using the outer flame a lot, you can upgrade your oxygen supply at that time.
My class had plenty of new people too. I put in the class description that everyone should have previous experience, but the only experience some of them had was taking a class once before...
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2007-08-29, 9:57am
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
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I don't want to hijack this thread - just a quick question for Cosmo (hope it's ok with you, Lea) - what about GTT torches with the M20. I have a Bobcat and if I want to stay with GTT, may I got up to a Cheetah?
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Hayley
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2007-08-29, 10:23am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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I like GTT torches, but I don't care for the Cheetah. The flame is just too wide for my tastes. I like the Lynx, and like the Phantom and the larger torches (which have separate inner and outer fires). But, when I used a Cheetah I just couldn't get a narrow flame. It was plenty hot, though. But that goes without saying when you are talking about GTT's.
Personally, I'd go with a Lynx. It doesn't sound like a big step up from your Bobcat, but that second oxygen knob makes a big difference. If you want to go bigger than a Lynx, I think the next logical step up is a Phantom.
I'm not saying the Cheetah is a bad torch, though. It just doesn't work for the way I work. But, I work on a Carlisle CC, and flames don't get much more narrow and pinpoint than the center fire of a CC. So, it could be that I just couldn't get a flame I liked on the Cheetah because of how I work. I didn't have a problem getting a narrow flame on a Phantom though (running just the center flame).
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2007-08-29, 10:31am
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Master Procrastinator
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
My class had plenty of new people too. I put in the class description that everyone should have previous experience, but the only experience some of them had was taking a class once before...
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I know what you mean. That's how my class seemed to be too. It's just too big a learning curve to try to learn how to make round beads and then to learn boro the next day. I know that Sandy was frustrated by it as well. The lady sitting next to me burnt through at least 1/2 dozen mandrels. Then, to top it all off, the curtain and the supports surrounding our work area suddenly came down on top of a few folks while the torches were all on. One lady burnt a hole in her shirt, but luckily no one was hurt. It was a scary few minutes though.
Thanks for all your help.
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Lea
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2007-08-29, 10:42am
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
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Thank you so much for your time, Cosmo. It's curious that the Cheetah had such different characteristics than the rest of the GTT torches! Thanks, Lea for letting me post that question! Sounds like quite a scare you had at your class - especially if most of the students were newbies!
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Hayley
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2007-08-29, 10:45am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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Yeah. One of the people that was in your class took both of my classes at well. She told me about that. I imagine that would be pretty scary.
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2007-08-29, 10:59am
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Boro Brat
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Join Date: Sep 09, 2005
Location: Maine
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I totally agree with chad about the bullet...it's an awesome torch. The studio that I demo at up here just got a hell cat, but it's not hooked up yet...the thing looks like a mini cc on steroids...lol...it's built like a tank. So is the bullet, though. Both torches are definitely solid. I ran my bullet burner on tanks and it was very efficient considering the size of the flame. Loved that torch. I would probably still have it if it weren't for $ problems a while back...great torch.
As far as the cheetah, though...I have a different experience. I moved up from a lynx to a cheetah hoping for a little more heat and I definitely got it. Loved the lynx, but I like the cheetah better. No, the pinner is not quite the itty bitty lazer that you can get on a lynx, but it is still itty bitty; very useable and not a huge difference from the lynx. Took me a while to find it, but now that I know how to get it I have no complaints. I use a phantom when I demo at the studio and when I come home I don't miss (or even notice) the lynx pinner, although I often work with a small/pinner flame. So, if you have the money for a phantom, get it! And make sure you have a foot pedal for it  If not, but you'd like more flame than what the lynx throws, I would get a cheetah again in a heartbeat. That said, yes, I still want a phantom 
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Pipyr
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2007-08-29, 11:04am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 12, 2006
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 917
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The Cheetah characteristics aren't that different in progression, it is just that the torches commonly seen on either side of it are really the same torch on the narrow end.
The base Lynx is seven jets and can get a super pinpoint flame using the extra blue knob. On the other side is commonly put the Phantom which has a Lynx torch surrounded by a separate ring of ports that act as the outer fire. When the outer fire is turned off, you have a very expensive Lynx. This is the same with all the multistage GTT line including the Mirage and Delta on up to the Python.
The Cheetah is a twelve jet torch so you have almost twice as much flame coming out. You can still get a fairly fine point on it, but nothing like the Lynx or the single premix tip of a CC because of the number of jets that are putting out flame.
The logical single stage big brother to the Cheetah is the Phoenix which you don't see that often. I saw one offered a few months ago on thegldg.com for a reasonable amount. It is the size of the Phantom but does not have the separately controlled Lynx centerfire. I am not sure what the "fine" flame on it would be like, but I can imagine that it would be pretty good sized.
As far as running on concentrators, this thread discusses some of the Cheetah's requirements:
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=56360
Cheers,
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Paul Ewing
Torch Ho... GTT Mirage, Carlisle CC, GTT Cheetahs, GTT Lynxes, and others on tanked O2.
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2007-08-29, 11:06am
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Mandrel Slayer
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Join Date: Jul 27, 2006
Location: The Third Coast
Posts: 630
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I bought a Hellcat at the Gathering and I love it. I think ABR has some for $745. I am going for the set up Cosmo suggests. The center fire is really hot on this torch so I am getting a lot more bang for my oxy usage than I was with my Wildcat.
Bonny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
Bullet. End of story. The Bethlehem is less efficient, produces less heat, and costs $250 more. Another torch you may want to consider is the Carlisle Hellcat, which is more expensive than the Bullet, but less than the Bethlehem. I think they are around $800 MSRP, but you can find them for varying prices. We are getting ready to start selling them ourselves. Not sure yet what we're going to be selling them for.
However, none will run at 100% on that concentrator. I ran a Hellcat at BeadFest (virtually the same torch as a Bullet) on three M-20 concentrators, and it ran pretty close to 100%. I could get as much flame on it as I could on the teaching torches (Hellcats as well) that were on tanked oxygen. I have only run a Bullet on tanked oxygen. I ran Brent's Barracuda on two M-20's and it ran well, but not 100%.
Another option is running your center fire off a concentrator, and your outer flame off tanked oxygen. The Hellcat comes set up that way. The Bullet you can get either way. To run a Barracuda like that it costs an extra $310. So if you choose to go that way, by the time you buy the torch ($795), the base ($100) and the quad manifold ($310) you have spent over $1200. Almost twice the price of a Bullet.
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Nothing right now
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What happens in Rockland, stays in Rockland.....
Hellcat, Two M-15s, propane and finally no tanked oxy.
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2007-08-29, 11:10am
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Tonbodama Murrini maker
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 1,004
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Hi Cosmo,
Can i ask a question about the bullet to? I now have a minor with 2 5lpm concentrators. Will these two concentrators be enough to use the center fire or not?
Or would it be better if i make the O2 holding tank ?
Thanks
Christina
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2007-08-29, 11:37am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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Yep. I run my Little Dragon (the center fire of the Bullet) off two 5 LPM concentrators.
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2007-08-29, 12:05pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 06, 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 564
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I run the center of my bullet on 2 5ltr concentrators and almost never use the outter.
I think anyone would love this torch if they gave it a try.I don't think I will ever need another torch.And I will never have to send it in to be cleaned as it is like a little tank just run a wire down the ports once a week or so.
Also I think the center is hotter on 2-5ltr than some torches that say they are the hotest.
G.
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2007-09-02, 7:23pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 27, 2006
Location: Reading, PA
Posts: 645
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Hi Lea...you are getting some great advice here. I think both the Bullet or the Barracuda would be great. I still love my Barracuda...
Cosmo...I did email the Beadfest folks with some feedback and got a good response from them. Hopefully they will change some things next year.
Sandy Seaman
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2007-09-03, 8:11am
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traumaqueen
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Location: Utrecht, a town in The Netherlands, close to amsterdam
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Can't judge on the bullet part but I absolutely adore my Barracuda!
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2007-09-04, 10:56am
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I'm too sexy for my shirt
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Join Date: Mar 30, 2006
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,164
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I love my Barracuda too! Pinpoint flame to nice bushy flame.
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Jerri
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#K58
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2007-09-04, 3:40pm
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Wild at Heart!
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Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
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What's the flame on the Bullet like? Can you get a pinpoint flame on the inner fire? I'm looking at a larger torch to do some boro with. I have a Tornado (20 psi, 10 lpm), but I have tanked air too.
I still love my minor for detailed stringer work.
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??
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2007-09-04, 3:55pm
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Skeptical Optimist
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Join Date: Apr 02, 2006
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 656
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I have a barracuda, but I love my Mirage soooo much more! I hear great stuff about the Bullet, though for the price, a Lynx rocks! I use the lynx portion of my torch all the time on my generator, tanked for the outer fire. Good luck either way, I just don't think the barracudas are worth the new pricetag 
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Patrice & Paul, Running a Mirage and Barracuda on a Pro-8.
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2007-09-05, 5:01am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiB
What's the flame on the Bullet like? Can you get a pinpoint flame on the inner fire? I'm looking at a larger torch to do some boro with. I have a Tornado (20 psi, 10 lpm), but I have tanked air too.
I still love my minor for detailed stringer work.
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Yes. You can get a much more pinpoint flame than you can on a Minor while still being a very hot flame. It's much more adjustable than a Minor.
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2007-09-05, 6:09am
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Melt That Glass
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Join Date: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 878
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I have a bullet and love it. I use the inner flame for soft glass and the both for boro. I don't have any problems doing what I want with it. I run two oxycons on the inside flame and tanked O2 on the outer flame. I'm sooooooo glad I purchased this torch.
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Jan
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Knight Bullet, 2 cons and tanked
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2007-09-05, 6:41pm
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Master Procrastinator
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,345
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Well, I bought a bullet in the garage (thank you, Nancy) & am waiting (not so) patiently for it to arrive. I picked up my M20 oxycon yesterday so I'm good to go  .
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Lea
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2011-03-29, 10:37am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Dec 04, 2010
Location: Rum District, MA
Posts: 9
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haven't tried the bullet but I have the Barracuda. Nice mid range torch but the centerfire is too wide for my taste. Can't get a sharp hot needle flame like with the CC. I guess you'd need a pre-mix to get that precision.
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2011-03-29, 12:40pm
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Pyromaniac
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Join Date: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Out there on the interwebs
Posts: 1,784
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Wow. Necro-Postage!
I too have a cuda. The center fire gets pretty narrow and yes, there's no comparison with that needle premix flame.
Personally, I'm upgrading to a Phantom or Mirage when I can swing it financially. I'll be keeping the cuda too. Just won't be working on it much any more.
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Chris Scala
Fortune Cookie say, "When things go wrong, don't go with them!"
Current Glass-Melting Apparatus:
GTT Lynx powered by 2 5 LPM Oxycons and
a sexy Barracuda running pure tanked Oxy
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2011-03-29, 1:38pm
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Pyromaniac
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Join Date: Aug 12, 2006
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
Wow. Necro-Postage!
I too have a cuda. The center fire gets pretty narrow and yes, there's no comparison with that needle premix flame.
Personally, I'm upgrading to a Phantom or Mirage when I can swing it financially. I'll be keeping the cuda too. Just won't be working on it much any more.
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Wow is is indeed an old thread!
Chris, you know I got that Mirage, but I still love my Cuda.
The needle flame you can get on it I have not been able to duplicate with the Mirage. I do think the Cuda eats more oxy than the Mirage but that's my experience.
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Lana
Sexy Barracuda and Mirage
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