Lampwork Etc.
 
Send a PM to CorriDawn!

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Donate via PayPal to donate@lampworketc.com

Glacial Art Glass


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Safety

Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them? 63 51.22%
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!! 37 30.08%
Who care? I just want to learn!! 13 10.57%
Huh? Students have rights? Since when? 10 8.13%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2008-02-20, 9:27am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default Do glassworking students have any rights?

We've all read some of the horror stories from glassworking classes and it got me to thinking that it is beginning to seem like the student has no rights whatsoever in the classroom. But it is the student who is paying the big bucks to learn. Personally, I think it is totally messed up, and in that vein, I'd like to present what I modestly call the "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights".

I've put a poll on this thread, as I'm interested in what you think about some of these ideas. They are not solely mine, they were developed along with others who have suffered through many a bad class experience.

The student shall have:

a clean and safe working environment;

a well-qualified teaching instructor and assistants;

class time with the teacher and assistants free from distractions;

the right to request a full and immediate refund if any of the above rights are infringed upon.

’safe working environment’ means one that is properly ventilated, adequately secured, properly safeguarded with fire extinguishers, telephones and first aid kits. See this list for any questions about proper equipment: http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/basic-safety-equipment/

‘well-qualified’ means people who have taught the same subject before, and are well-known in their field. If the teacher has taught less than 5 classes or is teaching a relatively new technique to him/her, then the teacher must announce this fact prior to taking registration for the class and have written notification in the syllabus information handed out prior to the class.

‘free from distractions’ means that the students are quiet and attentive when the teacher/assistant is teaching, that disruptive people are quickly removed from the classroom situation, and that problems are quickly and quietly dealt with.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2008-02-20, 9:42am
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Well, I do my best to guarantee all of the above.

I don't know how "well-qualified" I am - you'd have to ask my students about that I guess. I have taught something like 40-45 classes so far if that counts for anything.

But, we do have a save environment. Ventilation, fireproof surface, eyewear, proper safety instruction before torches are turned on, fire extinguisher within reach, etc. I put all the items in the kiln for the beginning classes.

As for distractions, we only have 3 people in classes, so each person gets plenty of attention. I've never had any disruptive people in class though. It's been my experience that as soon as the torches turn on, everyone becomes quiet and entranced by the flame. We have had problems like people cutting or burning themselves, but we handle those problems when they come up.

I've never had anyone ask for a refund, but I would give it if they felt that they didn't get what they paid for...


Having said that, I do think it would be hard to enforce, as anyone can call themselves a "teacher". I have heard all kinds of stories myself. I do try to be the best instructor that I can, but I don't have a huge frame of reference. I have taken maybe 4 classes in my lifetime, and one of them was my beginning class. I don't have any complaints about any of my instructors though. One thing I am going to do in the very near future is to take more classes. Partly for the instruction, and partly for the experience of being taught by someone else and seeing what I like/dislike about how they teach.

I have mentioned before that I would like to see some sort of certification course, but I'm in the minority there. I would like to see an organization like the ISGB put their stamp of approval on an instructor.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2008-02-20, 9:42am
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

Thanks Mike,
Just checked out your list of equipment--never thought about fire blankets or having a water bucket!! I will have them here next time I torch!! I really appreciate all your work.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2008-02-20, 9:54am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

As a teacher, I only have control over my class content, my ability to teach the techniques and my personal distractions. Those, I am willing to stand behind. There are times when I don't know what the studio is going to be like until I show up to teach there.

In my opinion, a studio should have all it needs to be safe and sound. I do have a 'safety' talk I do for them (the students) and a handout I give them on studio safety for their HOME studios. (Mostly in beginner classes.) I am not about to boss studio owners about their space. Would be nice if it were up to par...but that is their call, not mine. I have been to a couple studios that I won't teach in again. I showed up, recognized the problem, fulfilled my contract to teach there, and came back home. But I wouldn't go back knowing in advance what I would be dealing with.

I haven't voted yet, but when I do I am voting the one that says 'who is going to enforce it'?

Ultimately, studios could refuse to hire unproven teachers. Teachers could refuse to teach in non-state-of-the-art studios. Will this make all teachers better and all studios safer? I don't think so. I think studios are still going to hire unproven teachers and unproven teachers are still going to frequent unsafe studios. You still end up with a bunch of students who could be seriously let down by their whole class experience, which is a real shame.

How in the world and who in the world could enforce this?

I definitely believe that students have rights. Absolutely without a doubt they have the right to safety, good information, a skilled teacher and freedom from distraction. But how to enforce your 'bill of rights' is beyond me.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Last edited by Moth; 2008-02-20 at 11:14am.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2008-02-20, 10:19am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

I'm wondering if an educational approach instead of an enforcement approach might be easier to pull off.

I remember the isgb putting out a guideline of some sort for teachers.

As a teacher, I have to sign a contract with the studio. Does the studio have to sign a contract with the students too? If so...could this bill of rights be included somehow?

I would not be at all surprised if some studios already do this.

Just a thought.
~~Mary

edited to add- I never realized this was a widespread problem.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Last edited by Moth; 2008-02-20 at 10:28am.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2008-02-20, 10:20am
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

I have a new 'home' studio that I set up with the idea of inviting lampworkers, whose work I admired, to give workshops. This process has been aided by my new friends @ LE who taught me that a safe studio did not need only glasses, first aid, and fire extinguishers. This was the environment that I learned in. I have come to learn about good ventilation and other things that make a safe studio from having friends over to torch. If we share with each other and make a point to our friends about these things, we make it better for everyone. Last year I would have taken classes anywhere with no worries. This year I know better. Teachers should not suffer, studios should bear the responsibility of safety--that being said, if I were a teacher, the first thing I would ask about would be safety. It is my health too, even if I don't feel effects of bad air right now. Students should ask too--ultimately there is the power. I changed things in my studio so people would feel safe here and continue to come--so will the big boys if we tell them we won't come.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2008-02-20, 10:43am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

That's very true, Quincy.

I do believe that students deserve all that and perhaps even more. Just like any other customer...they are paying for something and they should be able to get it.

I teach in private home studios, and once per year I will travel out into a big public studio. If I were on a long circuit of classes, I would probably have a much different perspective and perhaps even more guts in grilling studios for information. I sure know I wouldn't be teaching in my own studio if it weren't impeccable in cleanliness AND safety.

I'm totally confident about where I'm scheduled to teach this year. I've seen the studio set up, know the person running it (at least in cyber-life I do), and I have no worries about environment. I wish I felt that confident in all of them. It would be a great thing.

I should take personal responsibility for teaching in studios that weren't really very safe...I think mainly the reason I didn't feel responsible for that was because I was relatively new (to teaching) at the time myself and figured if that studio was good enough for the big dogs...it was good enough for me. There were some big names teaching there.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:20am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Mary -- let me ask you this: if an unknown studio contacted you asking you to teach there, what would you ask them? Would you ask them about their ventilation? Their safety equipment and procedures?

This is one of the ways I can see the BOR being enforced -- by the teacher making good decisions about where they teach.

Will studios hire teachers with no experience or who don't care about where they teach? Absolutely! But as time goes by and the more fuss is made about these bad situations, I think it will tend to be a self-repairing problem. Studios will become known as to whether or not they meet standards, teachers will become known if they are worthwhile or not.

I certainly don't believe it is going to be a perfect solution to the problem. But I do believe that the honest teacher and/or studio is going to be very interested in continuing what they do. I applaud both you and Cosmo for the stand you've both taken.

Yes, the ISGB has a teachers outline, and it is available on their website, but there is absolutely zero movement towards certification or any other process to ensure that teachers who have taken the classes the ISGB offers continue to teach that way. I believe there is fear by the powers-that-be inside the ISGB of problems of enforcement, not to mention legal issues...in otherwords, they have decided to take the head-in-the-sand approach.

And unfortunately for the students out there, that does nothing to ensure that the students are safe and properly taught. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

Something has to be done, and if the main organization of glassworkers isn't going to do it, then it has to start at the grass roots.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:41am
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Personally, I'd like the ISGB to get the intestinal fortitude to do it themselves.

It is right in Article 1 of the ISGB Code of Regulations, section 1.3.2:

Quote:
Section 1.3.2 – To promote educational initiatives on historical and contemporary techniques and trends, including establishing best practices for education and studio safety.
The emphasis above is mine alone.

To date, the ISGB, apart from the aforementioned teachers guidelines http://www.isgb.org/education/standards.shtml has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING further.

From what I remember from discussions with certain members of the ISGB, there is great fear about doing this, both from a legal and practical aspect.

But once again, I have to keep coming back to the orignal premise: who is getting hurt here? It is the student. And it is the student who is paying for the classes, money which goes both to the teacher and the studio. And in very many cases, the money going to the studio does nothing to improve the physical plant and provide a safe environment to learn in.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:50am
Otter's Flame's Avatar
Otter's Flame Otter's Flame is offline
He can do the origami
 
Join Date: Nov 24, 2005
Location: Najin Oyate
Posts: 1,474
Default

Is it just me or under the heading "Well Qualified", wouldn't this statement: people who have taught the same subject before, and are well-known in their field. limit the total teaching body to only the current teaching body because you can't teach if you haven't "taught the same subject before"? Also, wouldn't it limit the current teaching body to the techniques that are being taught presently and no new techniques taught? If you can only teach on those things before, you cannot teach anything new.

I teach some basic classes but by no means am I "well known in my field". If we could get these guidelines adopted, would that mean that all people like me would have to stop teaching?

Who would be the governing body? Would the certification be of the teacher as well as the teaching facility?

With the exception of Glass Stock I have never taken any classes. I hear these horror stories and I also wonder if there is something that needs to be done or if we should just continue to operate in good faith? For all the bad I hear, I have heard a lot of good also. How serious is the problem? I honestly don't know. I do know that I have been contacted by an artist's coop and by a local gallery to teach. I would not decide unless I could go on site and inspect the teaching facilities. I declined to teach at both places and I am looking to try and find an alternate location to satisfy both places. So obviously the potential to have bad locations and bad instructors is out there.

Interesting conversation Mike, thanks for starting it. I'd like to see where it leads.

Otter
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:55am
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

I don't personally care about "certification", I don't think that is as important as safety--I understand that there are probably a lot of people who give beginner classes and this is a place where there could be issues and I think that maybe something we have to deal with on a case by case problem. The only thing I've ever experienced personally is that local large studios complain about $$ lost to these teachers even though the won't spend any $$ for a barely minimal ventilation system. These same studios get their students because they can afford big name lampworkers. I think Mike is right, we are responsible to hold a high standard in our teaching and studios.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2008-02-20, 11:59am
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

PS to my previous post--skill in your craft is really, for me, the most important aspect. I know there are some people who can't or shouldn't teach. I feel it is more a matter of sharing one's skill- whether self-taught or not. Ultimately, too, your skill will draw the students.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:00pm
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
Mary -- let me ask you this: if an unknown studio contacted you asking you to teach there, what would you ask them? Would you ask them about their ventilation? Their safety equipment and procedures?
I'm usually hooked up with studios through students who want me to come to their area to teach. Two years ago I would not have asked enough questions. Maybe even one year ago.

This year I cold-contacted the studio I want to work with. Nobody requested me, I just wanted to work in this studio so badly, I contacted them out of the blue and thank goodness they agreed to have me. LOL Safety and student happiness is a big consideration for them and I am so excited to be going there. I wasn't faced with any 'unknowns' because there are pictures and descriptions of the studio on the internet. Parts of the contract we signed directly addressed elements of your bill of rights there. It is a good thing to know exactly what is expected of you, and vice versa. Most of it was common sense but it was just really well put together.

Only teaching in one place each year doesn't really make me a good litmus test for your discussion, but being aware that there ARE a fair share of disappointed students out there in general, is good motivation to make sure that I am not one of the teachers who lets them down. If part of not letting them down involves being choosier about where I teach...grassroots it is.

In the future, the questions I ask will need to be more focused I think. I certainly don't need ISGB bending my arm to make that happen and I think they know it wouldn't be appreciated. I don't mind them not progressing toward certifying teachers. Voluntary classes for teachers who are trying to prepare themselves with the information they need to teach strong classes is marvelous. Trying to make certification mandatory to teach in certain places or trying to make students believe they have to have an isgb certified teacher is overstepping.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:02pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Is it just me or under the heading "Well Qualified", wouldn't this statement: people who have taught the same subject before, and are well-known in their field. limit the total teaching body to only the current teaching body because you can't teach if you haven't "taught the same subject before"? Also, wouldn't it limit the current teaching body to the techniques that are being taught presently and no new techniques taught? If you can only teach on those things before, you cannot teach anything new.
No -- read what follows, that's the key, communication with the prospective student:
Quote:
If the teacher has taught less than 5 classes or is teaching a relatively new technique to him/her, then the teacher must announce this fact prior to taking registration for the class and have written notification in the syllabus information handed out prior to the class.
I believe that the student has a right to know if the teacher is a "newbie teacher".

As far as "governing body" or "certification process", remember, this is only a discussion at this point in time -- it is my fondest hope that the ISGB would pull its collective head out of the sand and take up the role they set for themselves, but only time will tell in that regard.

And as far as the bad is concerned, there have been comments about two places in particular, that, given their prominent position in our industry, you would think that they would be wanting to have absolutely the best possible studio. Both Delphi and Arrow Springs have zero torch ventilation. Can you imagine that? A person who has been around lampworking for any amount of time would know that Arrow Springs has a very good reputation as a supplier to our industry, but when it comes to their own studio, they are putting any student who takes a class there at risk because of no ventilation. Same with Delphi.

Why would any company want to cause potential harm to their customers, the very people who will presumably be spending lots of money at their company?

It is places like these that make me think that the problem is more widespread than we hear about.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:05pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

And really, for the studios, it isn't so much a matter of certification by any organization, it is a matter of meeting the building code. It is code that propane be plumbed, not run via hoses across the floor or tanks next to the work station. It is code that torches be ventilated. Etc. Etc. Etc...all I'm talking about is ensuring that each studio that opens its doors to the general public meets all current and future building codes.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:07pm
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

Kimberly, I am honestly knocked upside the head by this whole discussion. I had NO idea there were so many unhappy students out there. I mean, I know I haven't taught a lot of public classes, but I've taught a fair share of individuals and in all that time I have only heard 2 of them say they were unhappy with any classes they had ever taken from anyone.

I guess I just thought that it was the few and far between bad class experience. Apparently, this is a bigger problem than I ever heard about.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Last edited by Moth; 2008-02-20 at 12:08pm. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:10pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Completely agree. I also think that students have a responsibility. If the teacher isn't up to snuff - the students need to speak up. If the studio isn't up to snuff - the students need to speak up. Putting everything on the shoulders of the instructor, who truly has very little control over a given situation, is a poor idea. Students need to speak up!!
But Kimberly, many times students are afraid to do this!!

I have heard from friends who took classes given by so and so teacher (no names right now please) and were very disgusted by the fact that the class was continually interrupted by the teacher taking phone calls, or being called to the counter to deal with a customer, or students chattering among themselves, and then infamous case of a well-known teacher stepping outside for 30 minutes for a "cigarette break".

These things happen, some of them are very well-known teachers, and people are afraid to speak up about it -- afraid that they themselves will be somehow hurt by blowing the whistle.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:15pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
silver glass addict
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
Default

Thanks for starting this, Mike . . . at least someone is trying to raise awareness of these issues. I posted this in another thread but thought it's also appropriate to post here:

I took a one-day class at Arrow Springs last September and had a headache for three days . . . not to mention metallic taste at the back of my mouth and fatigue by mid afternoon of the day of class. I immediately canceled the three-day workshop I was going to take in December . . . a class where we would work with silver leaf, enamel AND fuming!

I know I am ultra sensitive but just because the other students feel no symptoms doesn't mean that they are not exposing themselves to the NoX fume.

I completely agree that ALL studios must have good ventilation system. I think well-known teachers should be responsible for their students and refuse to teach at venues without ventilation.

Having said that, even the ISBG is offering workshops and classes (and open torch) at the Gathering without proper ventilation! I understand it's impossible logistically but the fact that people's health is at risk here . . .

This is from the Currents booklet:

"Classes are frequently held in a hotel, convention center, or exhibit hall. While we always strive to give you the best classroom situation possible, poor ventilation, room lighting and heat buildup may be encountered."

I won't be taking any classes at the Gathering and will wear my respirator to Open Torch and hope for the best.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Hayley; 2008-02-20 at 12:20pm.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:16pm
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

I want to comment about the ventilation issue at Arrow Springs and I want to say that my info is second hand--they have been questioned about ventilation and have said repeatedly that they were going to install it....for the past many months. I have been there and heard several people justify the lack as okay because the space is so big. Does not compute--there is a lot of misinformation here...
Most folks didn't complain because they wanted a class with Leah Fairbanks or Tink or beg pardon Kimberly Affleck. If they don't care why would a student? Well some do. I know folks who refuse to take classes there until there is ventilation.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:25pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Hayley -- the issue of ventilation at the ISGB is a troublesome one, I grant you. It actually goes beyond logistics to the actual facility that the organization has to deal with. Since they are in a different hotel each year, there is no way to set up any kind of ventilation system at all. All they can do is to adjust the air exchanges in the room in which the open torch and classes are taking. They do do this -- last year in Minneapolis, I had the opportunity to work for a while with Lisa St. Martin who oversees the Open Torch and class logistics and know that this is one area she is emphatic with the hotel about.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:27pm
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

My apologies, Kim, as I said my info was second hand---my intent was to say that we beginners are swayed by visions of classes with the lampwork wonders.
Students need to speak up, but often as "newbies" we have no idea that we have any voice.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG

Last edited by quincyandco; 2008-02-20 at 12:29pm.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:30pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
silver glass addict
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
Hayley -- the issue of ventilation at the ISGB is a troublesome one, I grant you. It actually goes beyond logistics to the actual facility that the organization has to deal with. Since they are in a different hotel each year, there is no way to set up any kind of ventilation system at all. All they can do is to adjust the air exchanges in the room in which the open torch and classes are taking. They do do this -- last year in Minneapolis, I had the opportunity to work for a while with Lisa St. Martin who oversees the Open Torch and class logistics and know that this is one area she is emphatic with the hotel about.
Glad to hear that it is a consideration and that they at least try to adjust the air exchange. I was a little taken aback when I read that blurb in the booklet.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:31pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

I've already stated my opinion that many times students are afraid to speak up -- and yes, I do put a good deal on the teachers back. As you yourself state, you teach techniques dealing with fuming. As you well know fuming requires excellent ventilation. So you teach in studios that have excellent ventilation. No worries...

But what about all the other teachers out there who call people like me and Dale and others "safety nazi's"? Who refer to the things we try to educate people about as worthless, meaningless and not worth worring or bothering about? Oh, yes, they are out there, make no mistake about it. There are teachers out there who preach that ventilation is not necessary. That proper eyewear is a pair of clear safety glasses. Want me to go on?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:32pm
quincyandco's Avatar
quincyandco quincyandco is offline
just quincy
 
Join Date: Jun 18, 2007
Location: santa rosa california
Posts: 782
Default

I'll join you in the broom closet.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Little Dragon 21/Betta, tanked O2/NG
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:33pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Glad to hear that it is a consideration and that they at least try to adjust the air exchange. I was a little taken aback when I read that blurb in the booklet.
That blurb is called "Covering your ass"...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:34pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
silver glass addict
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
Default

Quincy and Kimberly -

I did exactly that . . . I was offered a chance to take a class with you Kimberly and asking about ventilation was the last thing on my mind! I was too busy making travel arrangement to go up to Seattle! Fortunate for me, Pratt did have a good ventilation system!

As Quincy said - most students are sooooooo thrilled to take classes with the masters of our field AND we trust that the studio will provide a safe environment, in addition, to some extend, we trust that the teachers will not put us in a situation that is unsafe.

Having said that - I think it's the responsibility of everyone - studios, teachers and students . . . and in that order.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:36pm
MikeAurelius's Avatar
MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
Safety ALWAYS
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Sauk Rapids, Minnesota
Posts: 2,401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
<snipped>

Ask Quincy said - most students are sooooooo thrilled to take classes with the masters of our field AND we trust that the studio will provide a safe environment, in addition, to some extend, we trust that the teachers will not put us in a situation that is unsafe.

Having said that - I think it's the responsibility of everyone - studios, teachers and students.
And way too many times, that trust is being betrayed...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Chaotic Glass: Safety for the glassworker, and random thoughts and opinions on the state of the glassworking world
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:43pm
Cosmo's Avatar
Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post

In the future, the questions I ask will need to be more focused I think. I certainly don't need ISGB bending my arm to make that happen and I think they know it wouldn't be appreciated. I don't mind them not progressing toward certifying teachers. Voluntary classes for teachers who are trying to prepare themselves with the information they need to teach strong classes is marvelous. Trying to make certification mandatory to teach in certain places or trying to make students believe they have to have an isgb certified teacher is overstepping.
I don't think it needs to be mandatory. In fact, it would work better if it wasn't. Look at PMC certification. You don't need to be certified to teach. However, the people that are generally get more money for their classes and are also held in higher regard in the PMC circles.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:45pm
Hayley's Avatar
Hayley Hayley is offline
silver glass addict
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Again, STUDENTS NEED TO SPEAK UP TOO!!! IT IS NOT JUST UP TO THE TEACHERS. In fact, it is easy for a studio to NOT bring a certain teacher in. But, if students refuse to buy classes at that studio, there is a much greater incentive to change the studio.
Speak up to whom? I have spoken to Arrow Springs and apology was given but do we see a ventilation system there yet?

Speak up in this forum and be an outcast because we complained about a well-respected establishment . . . and be called a trouble maker?

Beside, most students don't know better.

When I canceled my three-day class with AS and told them why - the response I got was that most of the students in my one-day class have been taking lots of classes with AS and never had any problem. But they were EXPOSED to the NoX fume and it's UNHEALTHY!!!

I am speaking up now because I feel that it needs to be addressed AND because I feel that I have been around this forum long enough . . . that I feel that I won't be crucified for speaking up. Others may never do however.
__________________
Hayley


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Hayley; 2008-02-20 at 12:47pm.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:46pm
sandbarr's Avatar
sandbarr sandbarr is offline
why hello
 
Join Date: Mar 24, 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 59
Default

I've been asked to teach awhile back and I said I couldn't; 1) I wasn't experienced enough at the time (I don't think I am yet still) 2) The place wasn't set up for torching ie ventilation, safety, etc. I had to explain to this art center what was required for this type of class.
In the future if I do hope to teach and I have thought about how I would teach a class- ( I haven't had the opportunity to take a class myself as of yet) I would first off spend the first part of the class just discussing safety.
I know of a place here that doesn't have any sort of ventilation set up when teaching a basic lampwork class- and I was shocked when I asked where they torched and the women pointed to the middle of the store to just a table !
I think as consumers we have to educate ourselves on the importance of safety and spread the word to others. I think if more people understood the importance this would occur a lot less. Teachers should not teach in inadequate studios and force these places to change.
Power to the people!
__________________
The wind is low the birds will sing
That you are part of everything
Dear Prudence won't you open up your eyes?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:54am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 18.97.14.87