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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2010-12-04, 3:09pm
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Olimpia Olimpia is offline
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Question The Cost of Annealing Beads - Times are hard! Help!

I have a feeling there is something wrong with my schedule, my kiln or my life... that one you guys can't help with though...

Anyhoo.... I have calculated according to Paragon's formula the cost of firing my kiln. I have two kilns. One is a Jen Ken AF3P, using the formula I have, it came to $6.00 a firing. I also have a Paragon Extra Large Blue Bird that costs $7.00 a firing.
(anyone interested in the formula I can add it on later)

This is my firing schedule for my beads, they average 1 1/2" tall, 1" wide and around 1/2" thick. They usually have either silver, silver glass and murrini.

My schedule is:
Ramp Up full to 930 and hold for 12 hours while I work. (usually cut at 6 or less)
I keep them for 2:30 hours at this same temperature after the final bead is put it. (I already see maybe a problem here?)
Then I ramp down to 600 at 60 degrees per hour (this sounds odd to me)
Then I hold at 600 for 15 min and turn off.

I think I've messed up my schedule somehow but I'm not sure where. I am very, but very challanged at understanding schedules, please treat me like a 2nd grader.

None of my beads are having problems, they like the schedule. But I am having a problem with my electric bill! Is there somewhere in my schedule I can shorten the time my kiln is on?

Any help, any advise, anything is dearly and greatly appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 2010-12-04, 3:23pm
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I am not sure if you need to soak them for that long. I know if you search a bit around this board you will also find other peoples schedules. They will and can vary. There are a few methods that people say are better than others and a few more other than those, it just depends on what you want. I also remember reading once upon a time that it was a good idea to make the big stuff, stuff that was to be soaked longer, first and end with beads that did not really need to be soaked so long. This involved planning, but cuts down your soak time. I have also read many times, that 50 degrees per 1/2 hour seems to be pretty normal. Take a min to search, and check out some schedules. That may help you make a decision.
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Old 2010-12-04, 4:29pm
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Check out chapter 8 "Annealing" in Volume I of Contemporary Lampworking. Third Edition by Bandhu Dunham.

The information describes what annealing is all about, give formulas for calculating annealing cycles plus a chart for various annealing rates vs glass thickness.
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  #4  
Old 2010-12-04, 4:36pm
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i've got a paragon XL and i worked out if i work for 6 hours then soak for 45 min then ramp down it costs me about $3 - there was a thread here a while back where Howard (i think, could be wrong) did the calcs
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  #5  
Old 2010-12-04, 4:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
My schedule is:
Ramp Up full to 930 and hold for 12 hours while I work. (usually cut at 6 or less)
I keep them for 2:30 hours at this same temperature after the final bead is put it. (I already see maybe a problem here?)
Then I ramp down to 600 at 60 degrees per hour (this sounds odd to me)
Then I hold at 600 for 15 min and turn off.
You can cut your soak time down to one hour. I think I ramp down even slower than one degree a minute so what you're doing is fine, not odd. I don't turn mine off until it hits 400 but if you're not having any cracking issues, turning off at 600 is probably fine for the size beads you're making.
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  #6  
Old 2010-12-04, 4:46pm
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Olimpia - if you want to conserve, why don't you garage at 900 and ramp up to 930 at the end of your torching session. For 1/2" thick beads, you don't need to hold for 2.5 hours, 1-1.5 hours should suffice. Ramp down to 800 at 60/hour, hold for 10 mins, ramp down to 600 (or better yet to 400) at 100/hour.
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  #7  
Old 2010-12-04, 5:01pm
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Jacy, thank you! All my beads are pretty much the same size.
Alaska, thank you as well. I don't have that book but it sounds like something I should read!
Deb, thank you! I will search for that thread.
Amy and Hayley, thank you both! I will surely reduce my soaking by one hour and see if my beadies like it.
Hayley, I'll try that two step ramping down!

You are all so much help and I do appreciate it dearly!

Olimpia
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  #8  
Old 2010-12-04, 5:32pm
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http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...36&postcount=4


From Paragon


The cost of electricity is figured in kilowatt-hours (KWh). A kilowatt-hour is 1,000 watts of electricity running for 1 hour. (10 – 100-watt light bulbs glowing for one hour consume 1 KWh of electricity.)

To find what the power company charges you for a kilowatt-hour, look at your electric bill, call your power company, or visit their website. The electric rate usually varies depending on the time of year and amount of electricity you use. In the summer, rates in most areas are higher. Also, add the other costs listed on your electric bill, such as power transmission charges, taxes, etc. In some areas electricity is less expensive during low-demand times, such as nights and weekends. Call your power company to find out if this is available where you live.

Look at your kiln’s electrical data plate. It is usually on the side of the switch box. The data plate lists the watts, amps, and volts. If watts are not listed, multiply amps x volts. (Example: 15 amps x 240 volts = 3,600 watts.)

Divide the wattage of your kiln by 1000, which gives the kilowatts. (Move the decimal point 3 spaces to the left.)

Examples:

10,800 watts ÷ 1000 = 10.8

4,800 watts ÷ 1000 = 4.8

800 watts ÷ 1000 = .8

To figure kilowatt-hours for your kiln, multiply the kilowatts by the number of hours that all the elements are turned on.

If the heating elements for a 10.8-kilowatt kiln stay on continuously for 5 hours, the kiln would use 10.8 x 5 kilowatt-hours.

10.8 x 5 = 54 KWh (kilowatt-hours)

Then multiply by the amount your power company charges for a kilowatt-hour.

Example: 54 KWh x .09 = $4.86

However, the heating elements do not stay on throughout the firing. If your kiln uses infinite control switches or a digital controller, the elements cycle on and off to control the heating rate. The clicking noise that you hear during firing is the sound of the switches or relays turning the elements on and off.
The faster or hotter your kiln fires, the longer the elements stay on per hour. As a rough rule of thumb, figure that the elements stay on 1/2 – 3/4 of the total firing time.

Example:

A kiln draws 10,800 watts and the firing lasts 5 hours. You estimate that the elements remain powered during half the firing.

10,800 watts ÷ 1,000 = 10.8 kilowatts

10.8 x 5 hours = 54 KWh (kilowatt-hours)

54 ÷ 2 = 27 KWh used during a 5-hour firing

***********************************************

If you really want to know how much your kiln costs to run you are going to have to actually run it thru a cycle and time it. Go out with a stop watch and record how long the light is on.
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Last edited by houptdavid; 2010-12-04 at 5:34pm.
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Old 2010-12-04, 6:05pm
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Some also use a plug in watt hour meter. That way the actual usage over a given time period can be measured. Some Cities have these for use to determine which appliances take the most power. And may have these for use without a fee.

As pointed out earlier, the key is that the kiln elements are not on all of the time. For a boro bead firing schedule the kiln is on for a total of 225 minutes. (cold start to ramp down) This is not the total time the elements are on. That is perhaps as little as 50% depending.
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  #10  
Old 2010-12-05, 6:48am
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You can also add insulation - which will cut down the cost of every firing.
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  #11  
Old 2010-12-05, 11:05am
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Olimpia even at the figures above running full time

1560/1000 = 1.56 Kw

1.56 kw x 10 hours= 15.60 KWH

15.6 KWH X .15 = $2.34

Now that $2.34 is if the element is on for 10 hours solid which it isnt. At most it is 50% of that and more actually only 30% of that, so you are only looking at less than $1.00 per day 10 hr firing schedule.

Has there been a price increase in power cost that you didn't notice, Electric heat? More lights running?
The kiln is an easy target but uses about the same as a small electric space heater... ONLY WHILE THE LIGHT IS ON!
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Last edited by houptdavid; 2010-12-05 at 12:52pm.
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  #12  
Old 2010-12-05, 12:28pm
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Alaska has a good point - in our city, we have the watt meter things available at the library.
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Old 2010-12-05, 2:06pm
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As David says it all about "on" time of elements ..... That is what is costing you the big bucks... And I think the initial numbers of $7 plus a day is way high.... It should actually be closer to $1.50 to $2.00 a day...

Something I did was I set up a cheap old electric clock connected across the relay on my pump because I wanted to know how much time my pump was running when my sprinkler system was running..... Same concept could be done with kiln by attach a electric clock across relay and clock would only run when elements were on so it would record number of minutes (hours) elements were actually drawing power and if you knew actual number of minutes in any given period (say 12 hour) you can actually calculate cost per minute...

IF you are not familiar with kiln electronics This is probably not a concept for you and watt-hour meter borrowed for test would be better....

If you have mechanical relay in kiln and if you listen you can hear it click on and off and if you track time a bit (on cycle vs off cycle) you will find "duty cycle" of kiln and I'll bet you kiln is only actually on 15 to 20 minutes per hour at most.... The actual power consumed by a digital controller is so small its almost does not fit into equation ... Its the heat elements the are the power hogs....

Dale
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  #14  
Old 2010-12-05, 2:19pm
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Olympia,

I have a paragon SC-2, I ramp up and only keep it there for the amount of hours I'm going to work (in your case 6) and I only hold for 1 hour. It has worked well for me
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  #15  
Old 2010-12-06, 6:23pm
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I keep my kiln on for about 45 minutes after the last bead goes in and then I just switch it off. I have a pretty expensive bead kiln though that is made with fiber brick so it cools slowly enough on its own so I don't have to ramp down (only have a single phase controller anyway)
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Old 2010-12-06, 7:08pm
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Thank you all so much!
Wow... ! Boy was my math off!
This is what it reads, right off the bill.

Energy Charge 2,269 kWh x $0.0668 $151.57
Fuel Adjustment 2,269 kWh x $0.00962 $21.83

So I figured it out at .07 a kWh
My kiln is 1500 watts

.07/kW/h x 1.5 x 12 hours x .5 = .63 cents! (guess I read that as $6.30) duh!
So even if the "duty time" was 12 hours, it could only be $1.20 a day. Right?
So is my math right now? I need to be certain when the electric company technician shows up.

So, it's NOT my kiln.

Nothing else has changed here. My bill last month was $72.00 this month $235.00!!

No heater running, or barely a couple of nights.

Gotta call my electric company, something is most definitely wrong!

Thank you all so very much for all the input!
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  #17  
Old 2010-12-06, 7:16pm
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It's $1.31 but most likely at least 1/2 of that. (1.56 x12 x.07)
Are you on balanced billing and this is the adjustment month?



Well??? Pressure tank bad or a water leak
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Old 2010-12-06, 7:44pm
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Nope, not on a balanced billing. It's crazy! That's what it is!

Emailed my landlord and he asked me to please call my electric company and also file a complaint with the state. There is an actual procedure just for electricity.

I'm running a Hurricane Oxycon, that's not it is it??

I turned everything OFF and unplugged everything in the house, and the meter did stop running. Then I added one thing at a time to see what made the meter go crazy. The worse ones were the dryer, the fridge and the kiln. They all sped up the meter about the same, although the dryer was the worst.
Had my kid turn on every single electronic device in his room, including a 62" or something like that, giant screen TV. I was ready to blame him, but no, didn't do much to the meter. He says running every single thing in his room adds up to 4 amps. Which means nothing to me. He's pretty good at this stuff, he's a Geek with Geek Squad, the ones that go around houses advising people which equipment to buy.
Well, stumped now for sure, but happy to know it ain't my kiln and I can run it every day if I wanna!

Thank you!
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Old 2010-12-06, 8:00pm
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Are you on a well? My electric bill went through the roof once when the down pipe to my pump had a crack in it. It prevented the holding tank from ever staying filled, since it caused a suction effect that drained the tank when the pump turned off - which made the pump turn back on to fill the tank, repeat etc etc etc. It was over $100 higher and that was for less than a full month of it being broken.
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Old 2010-12-06, 8:16pm
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Nope not on a well either Squid. Thanks!
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Old 2010-12-06, 10:08pm
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Well I couldn't find the hurricane but the M-20 is only 600 watts.

The meter reader may not have read the meter and just estimated use, that happened to us before we went on the balanced billing. Now the meters are read thru the lines????
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Old 2010-12-06, 10:24pm
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Another way to get a feeling on what is happening is to take a meter reading on the outside electric meter. (some are digital while others have the older and hard to read dials) Then take another one 24 hours later. Perhaps do this for a few days and record. If you are home in the evening then perhaps at 8 pm for 2 to 3 days.

When you are annealing do the same thing. And see how the 24 hours with annealing and the 24 without w/o compare.
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Old 2010-12-08, 5:33pm
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Well I have an update. It's not a good one though. Turns out according to my meter I have consumed 1200 kwh this week! Normally I was consuming 2400 a month, and I thought that was ridiculous!

Called the electric company, they just said "yeah, that's amazing, something's consuming all that electricity for sure" not much help.
I am scheduling an electric inspection for tomorrow.

In the meantime I went to Home Depot and bought an Appliance Load Tester. I just remembered I changed the coil in my kiln a while back, it is now a low temperature coil, so perhaps it's consuming even less electricity.

I used the tester and these were my results:

Kiln 1020 Watts - 8.5 Amps
Hurricane Oxy-Con 1020 Watts - 8.5 Amps
Squirrel Cage Vent System 360 Watts - 3.0 Amps

So according to my calculations, running them all 8 hours a day they should cost:
My kwh rate is .07

Kiln (figured duty time) .57 a day
Oxy Con .57 a day
Extraction System .13 a day

ONLY $1.27 a day??? is that correct???

If I run all three and go look at the spinning wheel on my meter it's running a lot faster than when they are off.

I am confused, so very confused!
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Old 2010-12-08, 8:30pm
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Your numbers seem to be fine. However, many electric bills also contain a lot of other costs. My energy costs are at .07 per kw, but added on to that is an energy charge of .04/kw and a few other things. The overall cost has moved from .07/kw to .14/kw when all all items are totaled.

The meter you have to check power is a good choice. You now have numbers that can be used to determine some actual costs.

It is also good that when your bead making items are off the meter slows down. One other thing that can be done is to have someone watch the meter and turn off individual breakers. If one creates a huge difference, then you located the possible source of a high demand device.

If you have electric heating, a heat pump, an electric water heater or other such units these all can take large quantities of power. Most refrigerators take a lot of energy along with electric stoves and electric dryers.

Let us know the results with the electric survey person. They have the tools and skills to assist in narrowing down the issue.

Last edited by Alaska; 2010-12-08 at 8:34pm.
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Old 2010-12-08, 8:37pm
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Thank you Alaska. The only other charge is a fuel surcharge for electric this time of the year. But it's only .004.
But why if my bead setup really uses such little energy does it make the spinning wheel on my meter go really fast? Shouldn't it just speed up a bit?

I did do the breaker test. The one that really set it off like mad was the dryer. The fridge somewhat. The AC (which of course I am not running now) was pretty bad too. I still must check the electric heater, that will come next.

I'll keep you posted, I am so wishing for a faulty meter or something I can replace and be done with this nightmare!
Thank you!
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Old 2010-12-08, 9:04pm
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One bit of information that is missing is how do you heat? If it is a heat pump then that could be part of the answer. With colder weather these units become inefficient and switch to backup electric resistance heating. Which is a large toaster A coil in your heating system. These take a lot of energy and punch up power bills.

How fast the wheel spins and then speeds up or slows down depends on the initial load. If for a certain relative speed you are using 1 kw and then move to 2 kw the speed difference will be much greater than moving form 4 kw to 5 kw.

You can check with your electric company (or Google), but there is a way you can count the number of turns per minute or such to determine the amount of power being used. The meters here do not have a wheel, but have a digital display that can be read remotely. Thus the power folks do not have to come out to read the meter. Also reading the meter is a challenge as some of the indicator dials are read clockwise and other counter clockwise. Here is a link on the how to part....

http://entergy.apogee.net/res/refrmtr.asp

Let us know the results of the mystery. Hopefully, as you have stated, it is a meter that needs to be replaced. If so, then on to a refund for over billing.
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  #27  
Old 2010-12-08, 9:51pm
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houptdavid houptdavid is offline
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You mentioned that A/C is not running. Is your furnace electric? You think the dryer makes the meter spin
Oven/range, Hot water heater?
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Old 2010-12-08, 10:17pm
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Olimpia Olimpia is offline
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Thank you Alaska, yes I took a quick course on how to read a meter this morning online lol I've been reading the stinking thing all day, I am truly obsessed by now!

Yes, the furnace is electric but I haven't run it. I am blessed to be in San Antonio, TX and this house is very well insulated and haven't had really the need to run in. It's set to kick in if the temperature drops below 62 in the house. It hasn't.

I am horribly afraid to even start it!
The water heater is gas. Oven and range are gas too. There is a water softener that runs at night for an hour or so. I have no idea how much juice that thing needs.
I do have a pinball, haha! ... but we tested it today, 386 watts-3.1 amps, and it's not played all that much.

I really don't know about my furnace but I'll get the electrician to explain it to me. I know it's not gas for sure, that's about it. But... I have not run it anyway!

Is somebody stealing my juice??? ha ha!
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Old 2010-12-09, 3:08am
Alaska Alaska is offline
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The electrician will most likely have a clamp on amp meter to check the amount of current being supplied to each circuit. That then can be compared to the meter reading to determine if that device is working properly. It is interesting that the electric company was not interested in performing a meter check test.

It is interesting in that gas is not used for heating. Then perhaps a heat pump. For most places it is less costly to heat with gas than with electricity. Since it is already in use at your location it would seem logical to use it for heating. But not knowing how things are done in your community there could be a valid reason to not use NG for heating.

However, if you have a heat pump it is used for both heating and cooling. With electric used as a backup source in case the heat pump can not keep up with demand. Thus no need for a gas furnace. You most likely have higher cooling bills than heating as a guess considering your location.

Hopefully the electrician will locate the issue. Please let us all know the solution to this interesting mystery.
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  #30  
Old 2010-12-09, 3:28am
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maren maren is offline
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I live on $0.38/kWh. Luckily we neither have heating or a/c (depending on who you ask whether that's lucky. I can live without a/c, DH can live without heating). I can't see my (small) Glasshive kiln on the electric bill, and I can see DD being home (one extra (notebook) computer and a lot of extra laundry, but we do have a solar water heater).
I envy all of you your electricity rates.
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Palms Etc. tropical seeds and cuttings:
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HotHead on bulk propane and a Glasshive kiln
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