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The Dark Room -- Photo Editing and Picture Taking. Advice, tutorials, questions on all things photoshop, photo editing, and taking pictures of beads or glass.

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  #1  
Old 2007-02-17, 10:12am
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Default What is considered editing?

I'm asking this question in regards to show submissions and a discussion my husband and I are having. If a request for submissions asks for "no editing," I assume that means nothing whatsoever done to the photograph (maybe cropping.)

My husband thinks it may refer to retouching of areas, color adjustment and that sort of thing, but not to adjustment of lightness/darkness, contrast cropping.........

I do know that you wouldn't want to decrease the resolution of the image.

Can anyone clarify?

Do most contests ask for "no editing" (as BR?)
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Old 2007-02-17, 11:42am
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Any "edit" (retouch) would be a change in "original" image.... To me it means you can not change anything... Not even remove the ugly glare from bad light situation...

But that is my rather "black and white" interpretation...

Dale
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Old 2007-02-17, 12:36pm
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There is no such thing as an unedited photo! If you have taken two photos and pick one over the other that is editing. The simple act of converting from RAW format to TIFF or JPEG is editing. So they have asked for the impossible.

What they are really asking for is non retouched photos ( Unaltered ).
This does not mean brightness, contrast or color correction. But say changing the bead from it's true appearance. Any thing done with levels to correct the photo is fair game. Although that is editing it is not retouching.
Scott
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2007-02-17 at 12:44pm.
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Old 2007-02-17, 3:02pm
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Thanks, I was hoping someone would clarify. BTW - I am really enjoying your tuts in the darkroom, Scott. I have just begun to take photos of a few beads and am trying to learn more about the tools in Photoshop CS. Need to get a site up one of these days. Handling the levels in one menu like you advise is very efficient!
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Old 2007-02-17, 4:04pm
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I beg to differ Scott,
One of the reasons they want un-altered photos, and I believe that INCLUDES color correction, brightness and contrast is because you can GREATLY improve if not just out right change the look of your beads with those tools. By just using camera settings and lighting and not changing the image, or submitting an unaltered in any way image and an adjusted image for reference( as the Bead Review allowed you to do do) You show them how True to life your photos really are.

Boro is one case where this is REALLY a problem you can REALLY make an item look amazing with those 3 lil adjustments you mentioned above. Make it look like something it really is not at all. And in my opinion that is why they want the images unaltered in any way. If you cannot photograph your items to show them off then maybe you are using your photo editing program to make them look better than they are. Or maybe you need to really work on that for submitting to these publications. People who have amazing pieces of work are not getting into publications for one reason or another. It may be because of their images because they are not true to life so to speak.

Its easy to make pinks and purples look BETTER and morevibrant with colorcorrection and its easy to make your images look more crisp and vibrant but that is not what the jurys want they want to see your work as is, true to life in the raw and the only way to do that is by being able to photograph it well.

So as I say again I beg to differ but When they say unedited, I do believe they mean, unedited with the exception of format and size(as you have to submit them in the format and size they ask for). So no color correction, no brightness contrast correcting, no dust correction or glare correction so on so forth.

There are printing standards they must meet when sending their books and publications to press and by not having these images adjusted to start with it gives the folks working with the images an easier starting off point for editing and adjustments. Some printers haves standards for maximum black, or color ink density, so on and so forth just as a few examples.
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Last edited by IF-Designs; 2007-02-17 at 4:08pm.
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Old 2007-02-17, 5:29pm
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Originally Posted by Tanner Studios View Post
But say changing the bead from it's true appearance.
IF-Designs, Did you miss that part? Here is the problem I am having with what your saying. First digital cameras just don't capture accurately. Every image from the very best professional photographer to the worst beginner needs tweaking. Are you saying just because you push the cameras button the beads will look as they truly are? Of course not. It is true that you can manipulate the image with levels. But that was not what I was saying. But use levels to get your image as true to life as possible.

As Far as printing standards go. Thats all about levels as well. If the black point and white point are set correctly. The image will print within the standards.

The only person that knows what the beads look like. Is the person holding the beads. So shouldn't that person edit the image to get it to the point of true to life? The problems with art directors at magazines are, they are busy people. They are not going the work on your image. They will just send it off to the printer as is. Plus! They don't have the beads in hand. So how do they know what it looks like?

The key words here are ALTERED & TRUE TO LIFE.
Scott
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2007-02-17 at 5:46pm.
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Old 2007-02-17, 5:44pm
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Thats the key, the people judging dont have an the original to go from. If you give them an already altered image its even more difficult. Like I said before you can usually send both but they do have image adjusters that know what they are doing as well to adjust images. My images when I take my pictures are actually very close to to reality. I have very little to adjust with bead images with the exception of cropping, and sharpening sometimes I may need to brighten an image but very rarely. It is about having the right setup for your product. I didnt have a problem sending completely unedited images to The bead review as they requested and I sent an adjusted image as they said we could.

A quality publication of any sort WILL and do adjust images for quality before they go to publication and THAT is why you need to learn how to use your equipment to the best of your ability.

But really whos to know what you did to your image? unless they have a recall software to see the editing sequence you did to your image.

Go ahead edit to your lil hearts content make it look as it is which if everyone was honest and did that would be fine but people are not always honest and good people. I see examples of this all the time in galleries and show n tell where people show off items that people go gah gah gah over and in person they look NOTHING like the pictures they post or submit to publications.

I guess thats where my pet peave it. If your photo you are submitting doesnt look like the item in real life in average lighting then I dont think the photos are very truthful.

I take what the people asking for images for publication literally if they ask for unedited photos they mean it. In no way edited or altered.
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  #8  
Old 2007-02-17, 6:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IF-Designs View Post
My images when I take my pictures are actually very close to to reality. I have very little to adjust with bead images with the exception of cropping, and sharpening sometimes I may need to brighten an image but very rarely.
So, IF-Design. You are not a honest person! Just kidding. Thats my point. There is no such thing as an unedited photo. Just selecting which photo to send is an act of editing. The word Edit is so inclusive and often miss used. Edit and retouch are totally different. Edit, shall we say means to organize and fix the short comings. While retouch means to manipulate/alter.

I edit and retouch my images. As an artist there is no way in hell I'll going the allow someone else to change my vision. But I am honest for two reasons. First I do not retouch out anything that would be concreted a fault.
Second I edit (levels) so the image looks as it would look under direct sun light. I will not apologize for that. But I'm open and let peolpe Know how I work.

You do however make a great point. Get it as close to right from the get go. LOL
Scott
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2007-02-17 at 6:35pm.
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  #9  
Old 2007-02-17, 6:43pm
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But this is my point, I dont have a problem sending in an unedited image because if I take my time I probally wont have to adjust anything. I usually take my images pretty quick so if I maybe was shaking a lil I need to sharpen or if I didnt adjust my camera for speed / aperture first when taking images and just went automatic I may need to brighten It depends on how much of a hurry I was in.

Im just saying that there are many reasons why they may be asking for completely unretouched / unedited images...I wish they would specify exactly what they want Your meaning is compleltely different from mine Editing / retouching is the same thing to me. Because of the industry I worked in. It just depends to what extent you take it.

Some people are more honest in their imagery than others. That is where I think the new rules are stemming from with more and more digital applications.

For example when inquiring about thecorning review They may take only digital application this year and no slides when in years past they took slides and digitals. Now there is in no way to guarantee your slides are accurate color representations in comparison to digitals but outside of which film you chose and how you lit your photos and who processed your film there was not a whole lot you could do to tweek your slides unless you had digital slides made. With digital images there is an amazing amount of things that can be done to make the image look better.
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Old 2007-02-17, 6:54pm
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Here is an example of how unscrupulous I could be...Im not but I could be the top pic is an un retouched image of one of my boro lotus beads and a small matching set the 2nd image is of a "edited" retouched image to make it look more exciting or whatever if I were entering a contest or book or publication you could see how perhaps that editing might get me interest as there are not many "pinks" that color in boro.
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Old 2007-02-17, 7:07pm
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If you're asking what "unedited" means in the context of Bead Review entries, they want the photos just as they came out of the camera. No sharpening, no cropping, no color correction, no levels, no contrast adjustment, just the image exactly as it was downloaded from the camera.
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Old 2007-02-17, 7:11pm
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Originally Posted by IF-Designs View Post
But this is my point, I don't have a problem sending in an unedited image because if I take my time I probably wont have to adjust anything. I usually take my images pretty quick so if I maybe was shaking a lil I need to sharpen or if I didn't adjust my camera for speed / aperture first when taking images and just went automatic I may need to brighten It depends on how much of a hurry I was in.
If- Design, Thats editing. Try as you like to get around it. Thats editing!
Sharpening is editing. Just opening a file to look at it is editing. You can't have it both ways. RETOUCHING is not editing. Editing is not retouching. And no! thats is not the industry. Just people on a power trip. That feel it's important to show how much they know. I'll bet they would never detect a photo that was edited unless they understand what editing means. Every image! Thats the short answer.

If they call for non retouched images. I would be with you all the way. But unedited, thats just ignorant on there part. And you would be willing to put your art in there hands. Not me sorry.
Scott
P.S. both photos were edited. which one are you submitting?
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2007-02-17 at 7:48pm.
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Old 2007-02-17, 7:29pm
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Cghipp, Just out of the camera. You mean in raw format? what if they don't have the camera software to open it? Who's art is it anyway?
Scott
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Old 2007-02-17, 8:20pm
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Also not all cameras shoot in RAW. You can set some up to shoot in Raw, Tif or JPG at least the one I use you can. They do not ALL automatically only shoot in RAW and ONLY RAW although for editing purposes RAW does allow the best alternative for color correcting and adjustments.
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Cghipp, Just out of the camera. You mean in raw format? what if they don't have the camera software to open it? Who's art is it anyway?
Scott
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Old 2007-02-17, 8:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanner Studios View Post
Cghipp, Just out of the camera. You mean in raw format? what if they don't have the camera software to open it? Who's art is it anyway?
Scott
One should take photo in format that it will be shown in (defined by judging organisation) ... So when you export pic from camera it is in format that it will be viewed in when judged...

Dale
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Old 2007-02-17, 9:55pm
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Main Entry: 1ed·it
Pronunciation: 'e-d&t
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: back-formation from editor
1 a : to prepare (as literary material) for publication or public presentation b : to assemble (as a moving picture or tape recording) by cutting and rearranging c : to alter, adapt, or refine especially to bring about conformity to a standard or to suit a particular purpose <carefully edited the speech> <edit a data file>
2 : to direct the publication of <edits the daily newspaper>
3 : DELETE -- usually used with out
- ed·it·able /'e-d&-t&-b&l/ adjective
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Old 2007-02-17, 9:59pm
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Personally, I think anyone who wants to judge a beadmaker's work by the photos as they came out of the camera is just plain stupid.

I can see not wanting them added to, to introduce something that isn't part of the beads to the beads or to remove something that is part of the beads (such as cracks or scum) that is part of the actual beads, but to put dark, uncropped, unsharpened pictures in a contest of your work? What the hell for?

It's not a contest on photo lighting, for cryin' out loud.
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Old 2007-02-17, 10:59pm
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Who uses the images of their beads as the come off the camera and puts them directly on the internet to sell their beads with? Aren't you "selling" your beads when you enter them in a competition?

Of course, I have only submitted transparencies of my paintings in competitions. One has to produce the actual painting when selected and the painting is judged, not the photo of the painting.

Are we bead makers or photographers? Do we have to be both to be accepted in competitions?
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Old 2007-02-18, 6:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanner Studios View Post
Cghipp, Just out of the camera. You mean in raw format? what if they don't have the camera software to open it? Who's art is it anyway?
Scott
The VAST majority of us have cameras that download the images in .jpg format, so the image format is rarely an issue. I'm just telling you what the rules were; I'm not interested in "who's art is it anyway." They ask that you submit the image in JPEG or TIFF format, without any other alteration (if in fact you had to alter it to get it to that format). You are allowed to submit an edited version as well, if you wish. If you want to know what the complete rules are, you can download them from the artofbeadmaking.com web site.
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Old 2007-02-19, 7:36am
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Say I hired Jerry Anthony to take pictures of my beads - the only thing I get from him is a totally "print ready" image. Am I going to somehow get "docked points" by some who ask for unedited photos?

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Old 2007-02-19, 10:35am
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Hi Janelle
Tell you what. To prevent a war let us know what you are entering the pictures in. Are you sending them in to a juried show, a magazine, a photo contest? In fact could you point us to the site or rules for what ever it is you are entering that wants the " unedited " photo. Depending on what they want could go a long way in defining what "unedited" actually means to anyone.
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Old 2007-02-19, 1:04pm
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I'm sorry IF-Designs but I have to agree with Scott somewhat about what the bead review probably wants. Both you and Scott could have resume's a mile long and it means diddly because this is not a question of your skills its a question of what the group you are sending the pics to really want. What is the spirit of what they are requesting. My guess is that they want the pic you send them to look like the bead you are submitting. Case in point, and using the example pics you posted here earlier. Suppose when you took the pic of your flower bead it came out of the camera looking like your edited picture did with a pink flower instead of the correct red one. It could easily happen if your digital camera was incorrectly set up. Would you in good faith submit it? . I mean its not edited right? Yeah it does not look like the real bead but hey its an unedited picture and thats what the rules say to submit. Of course if someone showed up at your door and said show us the bead then you would be screwed because you have a bead with a red flower and they want to see the pink one. So would you correct the color levels to give you the correct coloring of the bead? I mean that would be editing the shot even though the final result is a picture that looks like the bead you want them to judge. Maybe the group making the rules should clarify what they really want.
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Old 2007-02-19, 1:46pm
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Actually, the other thing I thought publications want most is high quality photos, so that they have the best chance of working with the photos themselves for the final publication. It really didn't occur to me that these rules imply that lampworkers would try to "enhance" the appearance of the beads.

I know from designing websites, that high quality photos are important - and MUCH MORE so for print purposes.

The missing step in here for me is that the photo in a totally unedited state coming out of the camera really implies a level of photographic skills that I'm trying to figure out how to achieve. If, for example, you crop to center the object, is that an edit? In the purest sense, I would think it is... Yes, I can figure out how to center, but there are so many other factors.

Doesn't someone want to pull this info together and put it on a disc or a small book? Hey you experts - how about it? Seems like small glass objects are fairly difficult to photograph and require specific things in common. I'll be the first in line to buy it!!! And I'd be more than happy to pepper you with novice questions, so you can see how much an inexperienced person really doesn't know. It would a gigantic step forward to bring pretty good photos to the software in the first place - even when further editing is to occur.
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Old 2007-02-19, 1:52pm
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My guess is that they want the pic you send them to look like the bead you are submitting... Maybe the group making the rules should clarify what they really want.
You are 100% wrong about that. As I said before, they wanted the unedited image. It is not up for debate WHETHER that's what they wanted. If you want to debate about what they SHOULD want, that is a different story. I thought the rules stated in the call for entries were pretty clear. As I said before, you were allowed to also submit an edited version of the image.

I believe that the reason for wanting the unedited image was not so much to keep people from making their beads from looking vastly different than they really appeared, but to have some kind of consistent production value throughout the publication. If the beads were being submitted for an exhibit or to gain entry to a show, it wouldn't matter. But they are being submitted for a publication. Having a copy of the unedited image allows the publication designer to have some kind of consistency (although imperfect) over the amount of contrast, sharpening, and so on in the digital images. If they were being submitted for an exhibit and the beads were all in one place, they could have a photographer come in a shoot all of them at once. But they are being shot by dozens of (mostly) amateur photographers. Better to not have them all also edited for publication by dozens of (mostly) amateur photo editors. The results would be all over the place, and the visual appeal of the end product would be dramatically reduced.

I am not the designer, but this is my understanding of the reason for this rule.
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Old 2007-02-19, 1:54pm
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CGHIPP came in and responded. please go up and find her post. What you are suggesting is not correct in the case of the bead review. They had specific guidelines. No alterations at all other than to meet size / format. You could however also submit an edited / enhanced image for them to look at as well for editing purposes but it was not for the entry.

It agree that your resume shouldnt matter, I did not make it go that way, someone else did by belittling my professional knowledge.

I agree that the groups should be clarifying their rules. But I also understand their frusteration as well When they are not getting the physical work in hand to go with the digital imagery.
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Originally Posted by wnbresn View Post
I'm sorry IF-Designs but I have to agree with Scott somewhat about what the bead review probably wants. Both you and Scott could have resume's a mile long and it means diddly because this is not a question of your skills its a question of what the group you are sending the pics to really want. What is the spirit of what they are requesting. My guess is that they want the pic you send them to look like the bead you are submitting. Case in point, and using the example pics you posted here earlier. Suppose when you took the pic of your flower bead it came out of the camera looking like your edited picture did with a pink flower instead of the correct red one. It could easily happen if your digital camera was incorrectly set up. Would you in good faith submit it? . I mean its not edited right? Yeah it does not look like the real bead but hey its an unedited picture and thats what the rules say to submit. Of course if someone showed up at your door and said show us the bead then you would be screwed because you have a bead with a red flower and they want to see the pink one. So would you correct the color levels to give you the correct coloring of the bead? I mean that would be editing the shot even though the final result is a picture that looks like the bead you want them to judge. Maybe the group making the rules should clarify what they really want.
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Last edited by IF-Designs; 2007-02-19 at 1:56pm.
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  #26  
Old 2007-02-21, 1:02am
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A show of hands - how many people's photos right from the camera show their beads the way the beads really look?
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Old 2007-02-21, 10:51am
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i agree about the need for a totally unretouched/unedited photo for submission when print media is concerned. Each person's computer monitor/screen is calibrated differently. When you look at your bead on the screen and you've retouched it so that it perfectly matches your bead... Guess what... In most cases- it doesn't, period. This is why we continually see washed out photos from some folks, they don't think they're washed out when they're looking at them at home on their computer. Their monitor is miscalibrated.

An unretouched/unedited photo is the only way that a publication can secure consistancy throughout the submissions they receive (they can't fix already misfixed photos)... That being said; when they retouch them, who knows if it'll look just like the bead or not?... They don't have the bead, how could they know? best to send along a retouched photo to them with the unretouched/edited. Even then, depending on your monitor calibration when you retouched the photo, you may not stand a good chance of seeing your perfectly represented beadie in print.

Again, this is only for print... as far as shows and contest entry forms where the work is not included in a publication; I'm with Scott; edit and retouch the crap outta that thing until it looks as close to the original as you can get it, that's what's being judged- the original bead, not an unretouched photo that poorly represents your art.

These are just all my thoughts, anyway, I've no data to back anything up, just my faulty common sense.
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Old 2007-02-21, 11:18am
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EXCELLENT POINT One in which I should have touched on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaccarney View Post
i agree about the need for a totally unretouched/unedited photo for submission when print media is concerned. Each person's computer monitor/screen is calibrated differently. When you look at your bead on the screen and you've retouched it so that it perfectly matches your bead... Guess what... In most cases- it doesn't, period. This is why we continually see washed out photos from some folks, they don't think they're washed out when they're looking at them at home on their computer. Their monitor is miscalibrated.

An unretouched/unedited photo is the only way that a publication can secure consistancy throughout the submissions they receive (they can't fix already misfixed photos)... That being said; when they retouch them, who knows if it'll look just like the bead or not?... They don't have the bead, how could they know? best to send along a retouched photo to them with the unretouched/edited. Even then, depending on your monitor calibration when you retouched the photo, you may not stand a good chance of seeing your perfectly represented beadie in print.

Again, this is only for print... as far as shows and contest entry forms where the work is not included in a publication; I'm with Scott; edit and retouch the crap outta that thing until it looks as close to the original as you can get it, that's what's being judged- the original bead, not an unretouched photo that poorly represents your art.

These are just all my thoughts, anyway, I've no data to back anything up, just my faulty common sense.
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