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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2012-07-22, 2:40pm
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Default Kiln contamination from bad mandrels?

I have a Glass Hive Regular Guy kiln, which I've sent back to Mike and Pam at Glass Hive for rebuilding. There might be a problem with iron contamination in my kiln, so they want to take all the bricks out and replace them.

It's been a total mystery - I've been losing reduction on my silver glass in a really bad way, and it seems like it's been getting worse as time goes on. I did lots of temperature tests, I added activated charcoal, I did all the things recommended in the LE threads, Double Helix FAQ, etc etc and no luck. I even lowered my garage and annealing temperatures down to 820 and had the same results.

Basically I make a reduced silver glass bead with something like Triton or Notos, and within an hour garaging in the kiln at any temperature, most of the reduction has vanished. It seems the worst on the sides closest to the floor/fiber blanket and the walls. I can see the reduction disappear without opening the kiln doors, because Glass Hive kilns have a little air gap under the doors so I can peek in with a flashlight and see the beads.

I do have some old, rusty mandrels that seem softer than the others. I think I got a bad batch of mandrels about 10 years ago and some of them are still in use in my studio. Bad mandrels = a high iron content. Iron may have vaporized in my kiln and contaminated it, affecting my kiln environment and oxidizing my silver glass beads. This is the only thing that Mike and Pam can think of right now that might cause this problem. Or some other source of contamination. I've never done anything but 104 beadmaking in the kiln.

Do any of you have experience with iron contamination or kiln contamination?

I've heard of salty ocean air affecting silver glass beads. Any other weird mysterious things anyone has noticed that affect reduction?

Thanks!

P.S. Mike and Pam at Glass Hive have been so helpful with this - all of the good stuff you read about them here on LE is true!
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  #2  
Old 2012-07-25, 9:09am
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This is odd.
Someone recently posted about a metal rack in their kiln causing the element to go sooner than it should. The issue boiled down to the metal fuming inside the kiln causing all the issues. Idk if the brick was replaces or just the element in that situation. Might contact that person and see if they had similar issues with reduction.
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Old 2012-07-25, 9:17am
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Karolen, have you checked the temperature of your kiln with a pyrometers to make sure that your digital controller is reading accurately?
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  #4  
Old 2012-07-25, 5:10pm
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Been following this hoping for an answer, that's just scary and I hope you find your answer.
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  #5  
Old 2012-07-26, 3:39pm
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
Been following this hoping for an answer, that's just scary and I hope you find your answer.
me,too.
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  #6  
Old 2012-07-26, 3:46pm
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The real mystery for us is that even with an external pyrometer double checking that she was at a low 820, the silver was still erased from the beads. I am interested to see if any other people have had this issue.

I have seen it twice that was not temp related.

Once in our own hot shop kiln. It turned out that when we moved the shop a block from the ocean, the salt air was causing the issue.Silver blue pieces would go in shining like a mirror and come out just blue. We could abate it by using activated charcoal in the kiln and could keep the lusters. Moved to a place 13 miles from the ocean (same kiln in use with no modifications) and the problem stopped.

The other occurrence was early in my bead making career. I was using a bronze bar for a mandrel rest. My turquoise and similar colors were getting that gunmetal finish on them from the off gassing atoms, and I couldn't keep the silver reduction on hardly anything else. After removing the bar, a week or so later the problem went away.

The fact that I can't lay my finger on what is causing the issue with this one is making me a little crazy. We're replacing all the refractory material and doing testing. She is going through her mandrels and pulling out all the rusty ones (can't be good stainless if it rusts).

She also mentioned that the silver seems to leave at the mandrel first leaving a ring of burn off there, or areas that are on the kiln floor or blanket. Since the same batch of materials were used in many kilns and I don't have but one that is giving us fits I am not very suspect of the brick or blanket. The volume we use is large and in many hands out there.

If you have had issues like this we'd love to hear about them, solved or unsolved. Maybe we can find a common thread to help each other.
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  #7  
Old 2012-07-27, 10:30am
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Could it be that air is infiltrating the kiln box? Spaces between bricks, kiln door/opening etc.
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  #8  
Old 2012-07-27, 1:32pm
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Thanks everyone for your replies!

Jaci - I did read about the person with the elements going out from the bad kiln rack... that made me wonder about my situation. I will look up that thread again.

cheng076 - I've thought about the air gap under the doors possibly letting in too much oxygen. But if that were the case, then other Glass Hive kiln owners who made silver glass beads would have issues too. There are no damages, holes or other air gaps in the kiln.

I did check temperatures with an independent pyrometer. It showed that my kiln was running about 50 degrees hotter than what it said on the kiln's read-out. Mike and Pam at Glass Hive couldn't figure that one out, since the pyrometer in my kiln is supposedly a good one, from a good working batch of pyrometers. I wonder if contamination can cause the pyrometer to mis-read temps, like maybe it got coated with iron and doesn't work right.

I adjusted my kiln temperatures 50 degrees to compensate for this, but still had the same problems.

Pam, I don't think there are any problems with the bricks or blankets that you install in your kilns. I was thinking the bricks and blanket in my kiln have contamination now, and so the sides of the beads near the bricks and blanket get affected. ???

One interesting thing I've noticed: I am looking at some beads from about a year ago, from the time when my kiln first started having this problem. On these beads, the reduction has disappeared only around the bead holes. This didn't happen to every single silver glass bead, only some. That's how the problem started. It started suddenly one day, and that could have been the same time when I was low on mandrels so I started using some old rusty ones till I was able to get new ones.

Now I'm at the point I am today, where reduction not only disappears around the bead holes, but all over the bead. Not necessarily on the side facing the elements, but the near the bead holes, and on the underside of the bead that faces the blanket, or the side closest to a wall.

Here is a photo of some Triton spacers from a year ago when the problem first started happening. Maybe you can see, especially on the bead on the left, how the top of the bead is gold but it's dark blue around the bead hole. This isn't because I didn't reduce enough around the holes before putting it in the kiln. I tested that theory.



Here's how my beads come out today. I made these just a few weeks ago. These are Double Helix Notos glass (still pretty in their own way!) All of the beads here have lost reduction around the holes, and some have no reduction at all. They all went in the kiln the with the same luster.
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Last edited by sunflower33; 2012-07-27 at 1:47pm.
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Old 2012-07-28, 12:25am
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wow.

Pam/Mike have you taken all the brick out yet? I'm just wondering if you could (or have) made some sort of luster beads to throw in there in different spots and see if it happens at your shop? Just for environment reasons.
Better yet if she could make some and send to you and you make some, just to hit all variables.

Kiln racks, what kind do you have? I'm by no means an expert but is it just stainless or are there any welds or anything?

It's just very odd and I'm sure very frustrating on all sides.
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  #10  
Old 2012-07-28, 12:45am
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I think you guys hit it on the head in regards to the mandrels. I'm no scientist, but rust IS iron oxide. And I suspect the heat is causing the oxides layers to come off the rusty mandrels.

Alli
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  #11  
Old 2012-07-28, 2:50pm
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Thanks for your replies, Alli and Ravenesque.

The "mandrel rack" I use is a 12mm rod of Effetre clear that lays along the length of the floor. So, that's not the source of my kiln contamination.

Iron oxide... right! When I get my kiln back, I'm going to buy an entirely new inventory of mandrels.
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Old 2012-07-30, 7:51am
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Just this summer I have started to have a problem with the aurae I use on my beads in my 9 or 10 year old don mckinny kiln. I am watching this thread too to see what to do. Some beads lose almost all the lustre and some only in spots, maybe where they rest on the floor. I need to try the charcoal thing.

Laurie
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Old 2012-07-30, 6:19pm
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Wow Laurie! I first noticed my problem with a batch of Aurae spacers that lost reduction around the bead holes. After that, other colors started doing the same thing. I'm curious to know if the charcoal helps you.
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Old 2012-07-31, 8:44am
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I'm getting the short guy kiln made, I didn't know that rusty mandrels can/could cause problems for the kiln heat element or the beads.
I went and took this pic of some mandrels that came to me in a glass rod bundle.
These are the only mandrels I have so should I ditch them? How do I properly clean them?

I'm new to lampworking and am still collecting 'stuff' to get started.

. .
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Old 2012-07-31, 10:39am
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It's so nice to see a thread where the seller of the kiln is so involved with the repairs and open to suggestions!

I think we're all a bit guilty about complaining before complimenting, so I'd like to send kudos to everyone @ the Glass Hive!



And, a sidebar to Dott
, some of those mandrels would drive my handbrain nuts (you'll figure that out when you really start torching)! Wonky, not smooth, icky, couldn't even make a small spacer on them! There is a tactile alert that would totally go off if I were to try and spin some of those!

Mandrels are easy to clean with some fine steel wool, or a steel wool scrubby. The mandrels in the bottom picture look too far gone for me.

Barbara
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Old 2012-07-31, 7:45pm
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Looks like you might have a mixture of standard steel rod and perhaps a few stainless steel.

IMO it is best to NOT use soft steel welding rod. ONLY use stainless steel TIG filler rod. It is available from a welding supply store usually in one pound or ten pound tubes. Air Gas or Air Liquide are two of the common US welding supply stores.

The rods come in 36 inch lengths in a variety of ODs. The sizes of 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 are very common. Figure $11 to $17 per pound depending on size, type and amount purchased.

Last edited by Alaska; 2012-07-31 at 7:47pm.
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Old 2012-07-31, 8:42pm
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From the pics I'd just dump the whole lot. If you make your own from TIG rod they are very cheap.
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Old 2012-08-01, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower33 View Post
Iron oxide... right! When I get my kiln back, I'm going to buy an entirely new inventory of mandrels.
Sunflower33 I'm so sorry for hijacking your thread

I went ahead and took the advice of getting the TIG Filler rods instead of using old rusted metal ones to use in my New Short Guy Kiln (the kiln is still on the assembly line).

For $7 at the local welding supply co. the gentleman gave me over 1/2 lb (17 total) of 3 foot long rods in 3/32, 1/16, and 1/8 diameters.

I think the 3/32 rods may be a little too thin but I guess we'll just see how they work out when the time comes. I bet he'll even let me trade them back for a larger diameter if needed.

I just need to cut them to the right size for inside the kiln once it arrives.

Here is what the stainless rods look like

.
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Old 2012-08-01, 1:43pm
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Sunflower33 I'm so sorry for hijacking your thread
No problem Dott, thank you actually! I wanted to talk about mandrels too, and where and how to get good quality steel, but I didn't want to veer off the topic of my own thread

Your new mandrels look great. Those old ones would have been discouraging to work with if you're new to beadmaking. Not to mention they might have been low quality steel, and you wouldn't want to contaminate your new Short Guy!

The numbskulls at my local welding shop said they'd never heard of "316L stainless steel welding rod" when I asked for it. They called their distributor and the distributor didn't know what I was talking about. I guess I have to call it "TIG"? I know nothing about welding. I need to look into this more.

Does anyone know a glass supplier who also carries good mandrels, like Frantz or Arrow Springs for example? It seems like the mandrels I've gotten from them in recent years are good. If you've bought mandrels from them lately, would you agree that they're good quality steel?
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Old 2012-08-01, 2:14pm
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
wow.

Pam/Mike have you taken all the brick out yet? I'm just wondering if you could (or have) made some sort of luster beads to throw in there in different spots and see if it happens at your shop? Just for environment reasons.
Better yet if she could make some and send to you and you make some, just to hit all variables.

Kiln racks, what kind do you have? I'm by no means an expert but is it just stainless or are there any welds or anything?

It's just very odd and I'm sure very frustrating on all sides.
Unfortunately we don't have torches set up here for our use yet. That is the last building on our list, and got pushed back when Mike got sick. I also don't have any recent batches of Aurora to test with. The best we can do is remove the possibility of contamination in the brick, and go from there. We are also temp testing to be sure the kiln is holding at the proper temp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 28676bhe View Post
It's so nice to see a thread where the seller of the kiln is so involved with the repairs and open to suggestions!

I think we're all a bit guilty about complaining before complimenting, so I'd like to send kudos to everyone @ the Glass Hive!



And, a sidebar to Dott
, some of those mandrels would drive my handbrain nuts (you'll figure that out when you really start torching)! Wonky, not smooth, icky, couldn't even make a small spacer on them! There is a tactile alert that would totally go off if I were to try and spin some of those!

Mandrels are easy to clean with some fine steel wool, or a steel wool scrubby. The mandrels in the bottom picture look too far gone for me.

Barbara
That is very nice of you to say. We think all suppliers should take the issues of their customers very seriously, even when the source of the problem may or may not be the product we produce. If I learn with my customers, I have much more to offer should this problem pop up for some one else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower33 View Post
Wow Laurie! I first noticed my problem with a batch of Aurae spacers that lost reduction around the bead holes. After that, other colors started doing the same thing. I'm curious to know if the charcoal helps you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by designerbeads View Post
Just this summer I have started to have a problem with the aurae I use on my beads in my 9 or 10 year old don mckinny kiln. I am watching this thread too to see what to do. Some beads lose almost all the lustre and some only in spots, maybe where they rest on the floor. I need to try the charcoal thing.

Laurie
If there are others with the reduction loss on Aurora, is it possible that the batches aren't consistent, causing the results to very even at lower annealing temps? Does anyone have old and new batches to test against each other? Just a thought. I have no reason to doubt the quality other than the few folks here with common issues.

Are there other colors that are doing this or is this all about Aurora? That is a question I haven't posed yet. I really like this meeting of the minds here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower33 View Post
No problem Dott, thank you actually! I wanted to talk about mandrels too, and where and how to get good quality steel, but I didn't want to veer off the topic of my own thread

Your new mandrels look great. Those old ones would have been discouraging to work with if you're new to beadmaking. Not to mention they might have been low quality steel, and you wouldn't want to contaminate your new Short Guy!

The numbskulls at my local welding shop said they'd never heard of "316L stainless steel welding rod" when I asked for it. They called their distributor and the distributor didn't know what I was talking about. I guess I have to call it "TIG"? I know nothing about welding. I need to look into this more.

Does anyone know a glass supplier who also carries good mandrels, like Frantz or Arrow Springs for example? It seems like the mandrels I've gotten from them in recent years are good. If you've bought mandrels from them lately, would you agree that they're good quality steel?
That is really odd. Welding supply places should have that information. It would be like a glass worker not knowing what coe their glass is. Do you have a bigger operation there to try next?

The advise above on the mandrels leaves little to add. I made my own as well. There was a source on here that people claimed was much stronger than the average mandrel, but I can't remember who that was. Rust, no good. Not straight, no good. I also cut off the stamped portion of my rods because they are always bent a tad at the stamp, not to mention if you get a bead stuck, sometimes you need to back it off the other end of the mandrel, with the stamp, the bead can't slide by. Also I got tired of dipping the stamped end and mistakenly making plant stickers in stead of beads since there is no way to get a bead of the stamped portion.

I can say that in Karolens case (OP) there was a temp variance that we rectified. It was not a thermocouple issue, it was a controller that needed to be auto-tuned. Sometimes a controller can get off in temp on its own, there are algorithms that it uses to keep the temp range stable, and some times it gets confused.

However, before that was changed she used an external pyrometer to guide her to the actual temp she needed to keep silver as silver, and was still having issues. Hence the brick replacement and contamination concerns. Nothing should burn off at 820-880.

We're finishing up the rebuild and getting it ready to go home for further investigation. It will be basically a new unit when it goes. I can do anything to a kiln, but I must say, the silver colors are animals that I haven't completely come to grips with. I used a lot of Precision 104 and Iris colors in the 96 palate, but the lighter the base glass(the silver rods themselves), the less luck I had with the color being repeatable for me. Davinci opaque and Sasha's Silver were my favs.

Keep the brain storming up guys, you have already given us more to think about than we had by ourselves.
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Old 2012-08-01, 3:43pm
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Originally Posted by PittsGlass View Post
If there are others with the reduction loss on Aurora, is it possible that the batches aren't consistent, causing the results to very even at lower annealing temps? Does anyone have old and new batches to test against each other? Just a thought. I have no reason to doubt the quality other than the few folks here with common issues.

Are there other colors that are doing this or is this all about Aurora? That is a question I haven't posed yet. I really like this meeting of the minds here!
From what I've read here on LE, Aurae can be a hard color to get and keep reduction on, especially with plain spacers.

I have tried other batches of Aurae. Of course in my case with the strange kiln problem, I wanted to rule out the possibility of batch variance. I tried different batches of Triton, Nyx and Elektra too. All of my silver reducing glasses have been losing luster, even though I first noticed this problem when I used Aurae.

Maybe Aurae is extra sensitive, like a canary in a coal mine?

In my particular case at least, it's not just a matter of batch.

I like this meeting of the minds too!
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Old 2012-08-01, 7:04pm
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The problem occurring with different colors is probably good. If it was that simple I'd be kicking myself for not asking that question a long time ago
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  #23  
Old 2012-08-16, 2:14pm
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sunflower33 sunflower33 is offline
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Update:
I've gotten my re-built kiln back from the Glass Hive. I've done two sessions of beadmaking since then, and metallic luster is still disappearing from around the bead holes. It starts fading after garaging in the kiln for about an hour (I'm garaging at 900 right now). The longer the beads stay in the kiln, the more luster fades off, starting from the bead holes, then creeping up around the top of the bead.

I did buy all new mandrels from the beadboxman on Etsy. They seem to be good quality 316L steel and I'm happy with them.

I'm removing any potential contaminants I can think of from my studio, for example I took out a bottle of Liver of Sulfur (for blackening sterling jewelry). I've also tried new bottles of bead release, as well as different brands.

Pam sent me a list of contaminants that the kiln element manufacturers told her about. These are: ozones, halogens, sulfides and salts.

I'm looking at my process again, I want to make sure I'm adhering that silver luster as firmly as I can to the glass. The glass is usually cooler around bead holes, and maybe the luster is not sticking.

For now I'm going to carry on making beads in non-metallic styles, or with encased metallic glass.

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  #24  
Old 2012-08-16, 2:30pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Wow...Been following this for a while. This problem is a bear!
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  #25  
Old 2012-08-16, 2:43pm
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Lyssa Lyssa is offline
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Are you still using the activated charcoal?
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Old 2012-08-17, 3:08pm
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sunflower33 sunflower33 is offline
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No Aimee, I haven't been using the charcoal in a while. It didn't seem to have any effect on my glass.
When I did try it, the 2 tablespoons I'd use would burn out to ash after maybe 1/2 hr. or an hour in the kiln. I've heard other people say theirs lasts longer. I think I'd want the charcoal to last the whole torch session and all through the annealing cycle.

I thought about putting the charcoal in right before I set the kiln cycle to anneal, but it's too hot in the chamber at that point to put it in safely! (And by that time most of the luster has faded off of my beads).
I've read lots of threads here on LE about how to use charcoal, but I can't get it to work for me.
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  #27  
Old 2012-08-17, 4:53pm
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Sorry, I don't know how it works either. :\

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower33 View Post
No Aimee, I haven't been using the charcoal in a while. It didn't seem to have any effect on my glass.
When I did try it, the 2 tablespoons I'd use would burn out to ash after maybe 1/2 hr. or an hour in the kiln. I've heard other people say theirs lasts longer. I think I'd want the charcoal to last the whole torch session and all through the annealing cycle.

I thought about putting the charcoal in right before I set the kiln cycle to anneal, but it's too hot in the chamber at that point to put it in safely! (And by that time most of the luster has faded off of my beads).
I've read lots of threads here on LE about how to use charcoal, but I can't get it to work for me.
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  #28  
Old 2012-08-17, 5:26pm
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PittsGlass PittsGlass is offline
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The charcoal works in larger volumes. I filled a small ceramic pot bottom with it in a bead kiln or a mixing bowl size for a furnace size kiln. The top layer turns to ash quickly causing a reduction of oxygen to the lower layers. It then gets consumed slower after that. I would scrape off the burned part and add fresh between sessions giving it a stir.
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  #29  
Old 2012-08-17, 6:02pm
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loribeads loribeads is offline
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FWIW, I can't get triton to keep its shiny on spacers either. Aurae, either.

I'm beginning to think it's the glass.
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Last edited by loribeads; 2012-08-17 at 7:24pm.
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  #30  
Old 2012-08-19, 5:03am
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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oh wow, I'm sorry it's still happening, hope there's an answer sometime for you.

Lori is it just recent batches or always? I've only used them for decoration.
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