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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #901  
Old 2008-12-27, 5:22pm
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I scored 110 on the Beadwork Ethics Quiz.

http://interweave.com/bead/beadwork_...vey/ethics.asp
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  #902  
Old 2008-12-27, 5:30pm
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The original request of this thread may be exactly what tutorial authors should be doing from a legal standpoint.

Clickwrap Agreement: From wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap_contract

"The terms of service or license do not always appear on the same webpage or window, but are always accessible before acceptance, such as through a hyperlink embedded in the product's webpage or a pop-up screen prior to installation. In order to be deemed to have accepted the terms of service, the purchaser must be put on notice that certain terms of service may apply. If the terms of service are not visible and/or accessible, courts have found the notice requirement to be lacking and as such, the purchaser may not be bound to the terms of the agreement."





While I do feel that ethics play a very important part of this, the legal requirements are even more important, if one truly wants to protect their intellectual property.
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  #903  
Old 2008-12-27, 5:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf View Post
http://www.firemountaingems.com/ency...es&sact=search

I hope you (all) take a moment to read this, it pertains to this and other threads on the subject.
That was an absolutely fabulous article. Thank you so much for linking it here.
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  #904  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:07pm
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So, back to the definitions, if anyone still cares - What do you think about the list below?


Subject: an external object which is not another person's bead, which one can visualize making, and then figure out how to make

Techniques: those methods by which you manipulate the glass used to create the bead (i.e. dots, stringer work, hollow bead, bicone, baleen, etc., etc.)

Style: How you interpret and present the subject.

Design: the way in which you put techniques together to make that particular bead, and others like it.
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  #905  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:13pm
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
So, back to the definitions, if anyone still cares - What do you think about the list below?


Subject: an external object which is not another person's bead, which one can visualize making, and then figure out how to make

Techniques: those methods by which you manipulate the glass used to create the bead (i.e. dots, stringer work, hollow bead, bicone, baleen, etc., etc.)

Style: How you interpret and present the subject.

Design: the way in which you put techniques together to make that particular bead, and others like it.
I like that Pam.

Oh and I wanted to add. I have Rogers dragon tutorial and also Locos dragon tutorial, and if you were to write a tutorial on your dragon I would buy that too. Because they are all three so beautiful and so different and I know that I would learn something from each one of them that would allow me to create my own "style' of dragons.
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  #906  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:15pm
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Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio View Post
Also Vena, I notice that you didn't respond to any of the pertinent information I posted in reply to your posts, but instead you picked out everything that didn't matter one heap and chose to reply to that.

That was pretty predictable.
Frogsong,
There is nothing pertinent about anything coming out of your mouth. Give it a rest would you. If you want to have a one on one verbal pissing match with me then fine. Lets do it. But don't you think it would be respectful to the others for you to continue your little vendetta against me somewhere else other than this thread?

Predictable is the fact that as soon as I post this you are going to come back again, and again and again. You're not happy with posting once and waiting for someone else to post. As soon as you hit the "submit reply" button you are already typing a continuing response to the post you just sent. It's apparent you post just to post.

I'm going to do the morally correct thing and not respond to any more of your childish rhetoric. I know everyone here is tired of this thread being used for your own twisted pleasures. I'm asking you to please have enough respect for this community to drop your one woman show and let this thread continue peacefully.
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  #907  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
So, back to the definitions, if anyone still cares - What do you think about the list below?
Pam, I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to start a new thread somewhere else for the definitions - this is a really interesting subject which should definitely be discussed, but it's hard to keep track of the posts in here with all the other stuff going on. I think it deserves a thread of its own. Also, I'm thinking people who aren't necessarily reading this thread might have some valuable input and/or appreciate the discussion.

Just a thought.
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Last edited by sarah_hornik; 2008-12-27 at 6:19pm.
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  #908  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:25pm
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Frogsong,
There is nothing pertinent about anything coming out of your mouth. Give it a rest would you. If you want to have a one on one verbal pissing match with me then fine. Lets do it. But don't you think it would be respectful to the others for you to continue your little vendetta against me somewhere else other than this thread?

Predictable is the fact that as soon as I post this you are going to come back again, and again and again. You're not happy with posting once and waiting for someone else to post. As soon as you hit the "submit reply" button you are already typing a continuing response to the post you just sent. It's apparent you post just to post.

I'm going to do the morally correct thing and not respond to any more of your childish rhetoric. I know everyone here is tired of this thread being used for your own twisted pleasures. I'm asking you to please have enough respect for this community to drop your one woman show and let this thread continue peacefully.
Thank You!

Your request is appreciated from some of us who are trying to follow the discussion and are getting annoyed with all the endless, repeated statements that are doing nothing but derailing this thread.
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  #909  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Frogsong,
There is nothing pertinent about anything coming out of your mouth. Give it a rest would you. If you want to have a one on one verbal pissing match with me then fine. Lets do it. But don't you think it would be respectful to the others for you to continue your little vendetta against me somewhere else other than this thread?

Predictable is the fact that as soon as I post this you are going to come back again, and again and again. You're not happy with posting once and waiting for someone else to post. As soon as you hit the "submit reply" button you are already typing a continuing response to the post you just sent. It's apparent you post just to post.

I'm going to do the morally correct thing and not respond to any more of your childish rhetoric. I know everyone here is tired of this thread being used for your own twisted pleasures. I'm asking you to please have enough respect for this community to drop your one woman show and let this thread continue peacefully.
You mean like you waited for me to post before all those posts you made about me while I wasn't here?

And you mean like the respect you showed to every tutorial writer when you so happily shared the opinions of your 50 friends that were based on false information that you provided them?

Okay.

And guess what? You didn't have to make this post either. Take your own advice.
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  #910  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:31pm
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Originally Posted by Starrr View Post
Thank You!

Your request is appreciated from some of us who are trying to follow the discussion and are getting annoyed with all the endless, repeated statements that are doing nothing but derailing this thread.

LMAO...that's hilarious. What do you think she just did?
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  #911  
Old 2008-12-27, 6:44pm
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Let me show you how it's done.

I say, I'm not going to reply to anymore of your insulting posts. And then I don't.

Now, watch how this works.
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  #912  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:07pm
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
Hayley, you wonderful person, why do you constantly try to confuse me by bringing up things that I try very hard not to consider!! Okay, my honest thoughts on this - which I guess is what you are wanting - if I were to put out a tutorial on that particular dragon (which honestly would be totally useless as I cannot even copy my own work) I would consider that the people buying the tutorial were going to attempt to make that particular dragon. At this point, I am not sure that I would even offer a tutorial on a particular dragon that I didn't want copied ad nauseum. However, I would hope and expect (wearing my rose-colored glasses) that people would take the techniques and use them to make their own dragons. The posture, placement of the appendages, change, at least somewhat, with each dragon I make, so I would consider that as design for that particular dragon, but that would not be what I would be trying to convey in a tutorial. In a tutorial I would be conveying the techniques I use to create my dragons, plural, each of which is different, and if someone bought a tutorial in which I showed them how to make my dragons, then I would hope that my tutorial would be good enough that they would be able to make and sell dragons. I would also hope that perhaps they might take the techniques used and my style and morph them into swans or lizards or alligators or different dragons or something I have never thought of or attempted. That would be the reason for putting the techniques I use out there, to put those techniques into others' hands to see where they would take them.
Does "you wonderful person" translate to "you PITA?" lol!

I can't agree with you more on your clarification. If I may use your example to illustrate the following:

• For the tutorial writers (Lydia and Sherry are two) who give their blessings completely with no "if's" or "but's" - this means that the purchasers of their tutorials may choose to copy your dragon exactly, using the exact glass, placements, etc. and sell those dragons.

• For the tutorial writers (and we currently supposedly do not have anyone in this category but let's say in theory. . . ) who release their tutorials FOR INFORMATION ONLY - this means that the purchasers of their tutorials must put their own spin into the end products, using only the techniques learned.

The questions then are . . .
• Will just a simply change of glass colors be considered different enough?
• Will a dragon in flight be different enough?
• Or does it have to be a completely different animal, such as a pterodactyl?

• For the tutorial writers who put in some "pause factors" for lack of a better term . . . such as make up your own mind but do you want to be known as a copier or use your personal ethics or this is my livelihood, etc. The same three questions stated above apply . . . then it's up to the purchasers to make the judgment call as to what constitutes "their own spin" . . .

I don't have any answers . . . just thought I'd throw this out there for your hypothetical tutorial exercise discussion panel!
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  #913  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:13pm
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Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio View Post
Lisa, if the author gives you permission to copy and sell the bead, no, it is not copyright infringement. Just because you buy a book does not mean you now own the copyright and the author has given up the copyright. Trust me, it's still copyrighted.

If you buy a book to learn how to draw, the goal is to teach you the tools and mechanics you need to draw. Not to copy the images in the book and sell them as your own. If the author does not give you that permission to copy their images and sell them as your own, you are indeed in violation of copyright. And if your patent attorney tells you any different he is sadly mistaken.
Deb- are you an attorney? What I posted came from an attorney.

If you sell a tutorial on how to make a specific bead and the buyer/student then wants to sell the beads that result, you'd be hard pressed to be able to protect your copy right because you taught them how to copy it in exchange for money.

It seems that some artists think that their copy right continues to exist no matter what they do, including things contrary to the protection of it.

Lisa
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  #914  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:14pm
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Originally Posted by miahawk View Post
it's ok, Sherry. I have a bad head cold and some of what's going on in another thread has been overflowing here so part of my response to several people was based on that.

let me try again, and I'll bring the entire quote in this time because it really did make me think about some things regarding issues that can come up when contemplating writing tuts.



I agree with Sarah's concern that the advice might not be responsible. my concern for why branched out a little, as I'll explain below.

Here's Sarah's statement that she wasn't singling specific people out. neither am I. just things got me thinking about the problem of going to a specific peer group for advice they may not be qualified to give.



my response to Sarah:



let me see if I can conclude this better... in spite of the fact that there was a specific occurrence causing concern, I can see broader implications. I could see Sarah's scenario that people may just be saying "go for it" because no one wants to put a damper on someone's enthusiasm, especially in a case where being the person to bring up ethical issues may get you flamed. I also played it out a bit further that the people saying "go for it" may be thinking about what they can get... they'd like to know how to make the bead in question, and there's no risk to them, no possible backlash if the original author of the original tutorial disapproves. in essence, they're encouraging someone to take an ill-advised and risk without alerting that person of possible ethical issues.

that's why I said (and probably badly), if I was considering writing a tutorial and someone pointed out it had been done, I'd first find out what copyrights the original author has by contacting them, and then if things seem unclear, consult with a group of people who could give more objective advice, for instance my connections in business. I would not make an ethical decision based only on a sampling of potential customers.
I do totally understand now what you're saying. I also have a head cold, lol. Youre making some very valid points, especially in regards to current events, so to speak.
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  #915  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf View Post
http://www.firemountaingems.com/ency...es&sact=search

I hope you (all) take a moment to read this, it pertains to this and other threads on the subject.

Great article! Thank you!
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  #916  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:20pm
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Originally Posted by Asil4 View Post
Deb- are you an attorney? What I posted came from an attorney.

If you sell a tutorial on how to make a specific bead and the buyer/student then wants to sell the beads that result, you'd be hard pressed to be able to protect your copy right because you taught them how to copy it in exchange for money.

It seems that some artists think that their copy right continues to exist no matter what they do, including things contrary to the protection of it.

Lisa
So then what you are saying is, that if Disney puts out a book teaching you to draw Disney characters, you are free to copy those characters and sell them because Disney taught you how to draw them? Honestly Lisa, do you believe that?

Is it possible that your attorney misunderstood the question. Lord knows it's been misunderstood in this thread more times than I can count.

Copyright is valid for the life of the artist plus 70 years I believe.

Trademarks are valid for as long as the trademarked image, name, whatever is being used.

Seriously, do you think you can buy any art instruction book, duplicate the images and profit from them legally?

Please ask your attorney again and be as specific in as possible so that he fully understands what you're asking.
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  #917  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:33pm
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Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio View Post
What you really meant to say here is: If you're on my side of the debate you have every right to speak out without fear of being attacked, but if you're on the other side of the debate you have no right to speak out and if you do, you deserve to be personally attacked.
Deb I am not going to comment on the rest of all your blurbs, my god it is so not worth my time.

However when I was talking to the lurkers in my post I meant everyone , whether you agree with me or anyone else please start posting. You opions do matter and dont be afraid of anyone. Deb dont you ever pretend to know what I am thinking or rephrase my words to scare people afraid from posting. How dare you.

This has so turned into something that it was not. Very sad.

How about this just post on your promo page your disclaimer whatever it is then the buyer can read it prior to buying and decide for themselves. You dont have to change a darn word from your disclaimer you already have just post it so we can decide before money exchanges hands. If you write something about morals and ethics thats fine if people dont mind, or if you are confusing let them see it before hand. This way it is just like a disclaimer on a package before you buy , no different.

Is that to much to ask? Really I see it as the only way everyone gets there way, authors says what they really want not what they are told to write and the consumer can read it before they buy. Hopefully this could be an end to the issue.

Jen
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  #918  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:37pm
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Lisa, I'm sorry, I would love to continue this conversation with you. Even though we don't agree, you've at least tried to remain civil to me. But right now, I'm just sick of some of the reactions in this thread and the bead on a bead tutorial thread towards people with differing opinions.

It seems it doesn't matter how I try to explain myself and what I believe or what I say or how nicely I try to say it, people take it personally and/or the wrong way and throw a tantrum. I don't want to deal with any of it anymore.

So I am officially signing off of this thread.
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  #919  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:43pm
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be nice to me, Im sensitive, but I had this thought...
we've all voiced our opinons here, and how we feel round n round n round again...everyone that is going to.
spent oodles of time here, when, check this out!!!!!
we could be making beads!!!

I for one am making it my resolution to spend more time being creative!


Pam, I do think a thread all on its own about design, style, technique would be awesome!
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  #920  
Old 2008-12-27, 7:49pm
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Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio View Post
So then what you are saying is, that if Disney puts out a book teaching you to draw Disney characters, you are free to copy those characters and sell them because Disney taught you how to draw them? Honestly Lisa, do you believe that?
Yes, because in teaching you, they are actively engaging in an activity that puts their "rights" in danger.

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Is it possible that your attorney misunderstood the question. Lord knows it's been misunderstood in this thread more times than I can count.
No, the attorney didn't misunderstand.

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Copyright is valid for the life of the artist plus 70 years I believe.
You seem to be under the impression that a copyright is valid no matter what the holder does. If the copyright holder does nothing to jeopardize it, then yes, it's valid. If the copyright holder does something that invalidates a portion of it, they are doing it themselves. Teaching someone how to make an exact copy of what you hold a copyright for, in exchange for money, is engaging in activity that puts that copyright in jeopardy or invalidates a portion of it. You are teaching them to copy that which you hope to retain the right to. You are selling that right.

You can't just "hold" a copyright on something and give it away or sell it and then hope it's still intact. As a copyright holder you also have a responsiblity to act in a manner which protects it. The law can't reach beyond that for you.

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Please ask your attorney again and be as specific in as possible so that he fully understands what you're asking.
Excuse me? I'm sorry, Deb but, this is the kind of statement that can ruffle people's feathers.

Lisa
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  #921  
Old 2008-12-27, 8:20pm
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Jen, I think that was agreed to many, many pages ago!

Hayley, you are not a PITA. I really enjoy discussing things with you! Anyway, I don't think, under the circumstances you listed, a tutorial writer who says for information purposes only, that a change of color would be enough. Again, taking my dragon pictured, I would think it would be okay if the body pattern was different, along with the attitude of the dragon - in other words if they made it their dragon. The techniques learned in the hypothetical tutorial should be enough to make any kind of dragon they can imagine and would not necessarily have to reflect the pictured dragon.


I went back to read something again from the firemountaingems link. I thought I remembered it correctly, but wanted to get the exact wording. It is as follows: "Original patterns, tutorials, diagrams and writing are covered under copyright law, which gives bead workers the right to control the selling, displaying, distributing and even derivatives of their original work. However, the knowledge contained in those works isn't covered." That is what I have been trying to say since the beginning. I am not talking about those wonderful tutorial writers who give their permission, but that those who buy tutorials have no right to expect that just because someone makes a tutorial it is therefore okay to copy the work in the tutorial. The knowledge gained from the tutorial is yours and irrevocable.

For instance, there were statements early on in this thread to the effect, You can't have it both ways. Either you sell the technique and expect people to use it commercially or you keep it to yourself and are the only one selling those beads. And this, The point I was trying to make was make up your mind how you want to make the money but it cant be both ways. Another one, If they're selling the tutorial, then make and sell to your heart's content! And it goes on, If you buy the tutorial, then you have the right to make and sell the item you are learning. This is the attitude which I hope people now see is not necessarily correct.

I don't think any tutorial author that has posted here, including the much berated Sarah, has said that buyers are not allowed to copy the bead. And I think every tutorial writer has agreed that they will post the information so that people who buy their tutorial will know their feelings on use of the tutorial bead before they make the purchase. I personally think any tutorial writer has the right to make any statements they wish to make regarding their feelings about copying or anything else, and we, as tutorial buyers, have no right to interfere with their writings. You cannot tell authors what to write and we shouldn't try. The tutorial is their vehicle for dispensing information and we can buy or not.
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  #922  
Old 2008-12-27, 9:08pm
Torch&Marver Torch&Marver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Jen, I think that was agreed to many, many pages ago!

For instance, there were statements early on in this thread to the effect, You can't have it both ways. Either you sell the technique and expect people to use it commercially or you keep it to yourself and are the only one selling those beads. And this, The point I was trying to make was make up your mind how you want to make the money but it cant be both ways. Another one, If they're selling the tutorial, then make and sell to your heart's content! And it goes on, If you buy the tutorial, then you have the right to make and sell the item you are learning. This is the attitude which I hope people now see is not necessarily correct
As one of the people who originally said something along the lines of "tutorial authors can't have it both ways", I need to clarify that WHEN *I* said that, it was tongue in cheek and based on the prevailing attitudes coming from tutorial purchasers. Here's the exact quote:

If nothing else, this thread has made it crystal clear that there are some tutorial users who will copy a bead because they feel its their intrinsic right to do so. Tutorial writers would perhaps be wise to weigh whether or not sharing an exclusive design will generate more income by selling the instructions for it than they may receive for holding an exclusive right to a design. Clearly, there is an unwritten rule that writing a tutorial means abandoning any and all claim to ownership of designs used to demonstrate the technique (and if you state otherwise, you'll be punished somehow and that will affect your sales). from this post: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...52#post2258652

I also make mention of the need for authors to weigh their "losses" before deciding to write a tutorial in this thread: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...55#post2251755

To clarify, in neither case do I agree this is right - but am beginning to understand it's WHAT WILL HAPPEN the instant a tutorial is "out there" regardless of the intent and wishes of the tutorial author.
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  #923  
Old 2008-12-27, 9:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I went back to read something again from the firemountaingems link. I thought I remembered it correctly, but wanted to get the exact wording. It is as follows: "Original patterns, tutorials, diagrams and writing are covered under copyright law, which gives bead workers the right to control the selling, displaying, distributing and even derivatives of their original work. However, the knowledge contained in those works isn't covered." That is what I have been trying to say since the beginning. I am not talking about those wonderful tutorial writers who give their permission, but that those who buy tutorials have no right to expect that just because someone makes a tutorial it is therefore okay to copy the work in the tutorial. The knowledge gained from the tutorial is yours and irrevocable.
I read that to be talking about the patterns themselves or the tutorials themselves. As in- you cannot take a tutorial and copy it and sell it to someone else. You cannot take the wording from the tutorial and use it. You cannot take a pattern and run it through a copier and sell it.

The knowledge is not covered. If you are passing on the knowledge of how a specific bead is made and one can expect that it is okay to make and sell what results from the use of that knowledge, including a replica of the specific bead.

In order for a copyright holder to retain the rights afforded them under copyright law, they must act in a manner consistent with keeping that right whole.

If the copyright is held on a specific bead and the holder then sells a tutorial in which they teach, step by step how to replicate that specific bead, they have not acted in a manner consistent with the continuation of copyright coverage. They have altered it.

If you held a copyright to a specific bead and you stood on the corner and handed out free flyers which outlined, step by step, with photos, how to replicate that bead and then 2 months later you found those beads for sale and became upset about it and tried to sue under copyright protection, a judge or jury would find that by your own behavior you didn't act in a manner consistent with keeping that "right" whole. YOU altered it.

And, if we want to get into unsolicited "Life 101" advice about what "could" happen to you, as an artist if you did so, we could say that people "might" view the artist as not behaving in a very bright manner. There "might" be people out there who would say that if you wanted to retain your rights, it's rather ridiculous to give them away.

Lisa
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  #924  
Old 2008-12-27, 9:29pm
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Furthermore, a three-dimensional counterpart of a two-dimensional drawing is usually not a “copy” of the drawing, under United States copyright law. Thus, the copyright in a drawing of the approach to the Triboro Bridge is not infringed when the bridge approach is built.[18] On the other hand, however, because the essence of what is protected in a cartoon is captured by a doll depicting the cartoon figure, courts have repeatedly held unauthorized dolls to infringe the copyright in the underlying cartoons.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig..._and_licensing


Copyright law does not restrict the owner of a copy from reselling legitimately obtained copies of copyrighted works, provided that those copies were originally produced by or with the permission of the copyright holder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig...tion_of_rights
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  #925  
Old 2008-12-27, 9:33pm
Torch&Marver Torch&Marver is offline
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I'm sorry, Lisa. I can't help but feel there's been some misunderstanding with respect to your copyright law argument (and I'm not a lawyer but the way this particular legal firm describes it seems crystal clear to me). I'm sorry if you're upset by the idea there may have been some miscommunication but what I found in these pages completely contradicts what you say your legal contact claims on the topic. My source: http://www.piercelaw.edu/thomasfield...php#copylimits (insert the "I'm absolutely in no way affiliated with this website blurb" here)

Limits to Copyright
Copyright does not give an owner the right to sell or distribute a work. For example, consider one person's drawing of another's painting. Even if copyrightable (and it may not be), the drawing would infringe copyright in the original painting. Also, of course, the right to sell a work might be affected by laws governing matters such as obscenity or the rights of privacy or publicity of any person depicted.

The following was also very interesting and quite pertinent legal advice with respect to art and copyright:

Selling and Licensing Rights
While assignments and licenses may be of most interest to free-lance artists and authors who are not dealing with a company on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, even entrepreneurs may have have occasion to consider licensing others the right to reproduce a particular item.

In transferring copyrights to others, several issues should be considered and resolved in advance (preferably in writing).

Very Important Questions to Answer Before Making Transfers

* If the work is commissioned, is it or can it be regarded as "for hire?"
* If not, what rights are being transferred? All or them, only the right of first publication or, e.g., a right to use or reproduce for other limited purposes?
* Can the publisher use the work (or parts of it) in another product line or change the method of selling it?
* Can the publisher license others to use any part of the work in/on the same or unrelated products? If so, on what basis must payment be paid?
* To what extent is the artist restricted, for example, in being able to sell substantially similar (infringing) works?
* In a long term relationship, what happens to the copyright if the publisher loses interest or goes out of business? Does the copyright return or linger in the hands of uninterested or incompetent people? (Minimum royalty provision may help avoid such problems -- in any case, heed the voice of sad experience!)
* On what basis will payment be made? For example, hourly wages, a lump sum or royalties based on sales?
* If royalties are due, on what basis will they be computed, e.g., per item or a percentage of gross sales? (Avoid net sales or profits; it is too easy for the purchaser or licensee to play games with expenses allocated to particular sales!)
* Does the publisher ask to be indemnified for expenses of defending third party suits? This is pretty common. However, anyone can sue anybody for anything! Even if you win a suit, expenses can be very high; are you being paid enough to accept this risk?
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  #926  
Old 2008-12-27, 9:53pm
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Quote:
Limits to Copyright
Copyright does not give an owner the right to sell or distribute a work. For example, consider one person's drawing of another's painting. Even if copyrightable (and it may not be), the drawing would infringe copyright in the original painting. Also, of course, the right to sell a work might be affected by laws governing matters such as obscenity or the rights of privacy or publicity of any person depicted.
This sounds like it pertains to someone simply copying the work of another. It does not address the original painter actually teaching the person how to paint it and charging that person money to do so.

Quote:
Selling and Licensing Rights
While assignments and licenses may be of most interest to free-lance artists and authors who are not dealing with a company on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, even entrepreneurs may have have occasion to consider licensing others the right to reproduce a particular item.
This also seems as though it doesn't cover teaching someone, for a fee, how to reproduce your work. I guess I wouldn't consider that "licensing" them to represent your work- it would be teaching them how to do it for themselves.
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  #927  
Old 2008-12-27, 10:01pm
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"Original patterns, tutorials, diagrams and writing are covered under copyright law, which gives bead workers the right to control the selling, displaying, distributing and even derivatives of their original work. However, the knowledge contained in those works isn't covered."

This also has me wondering...if the knowledge isn't under copyright protection, then what I do with that knowledge may also not be protected under anyone's but my own copyright.

Just me wondering out loud.
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  #928  
Old 2008-12-27, 10:11pm
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* To what extent is the artist restricted, for example, in being able to sell substantially similar (infringing) works?

By putting in a Tut that you give permission for people to sell the beads, keep the beads, throw them against the wall or eat them a poop them out, you have then voided the copyright to that bead design/style/techique.

That is my understanding of this blurb within the copyright law.

You cannot say, go forth and copy and sell, then say, oh but now I am going to sue you for doing what I gave you express permission to do, nor can you complain about it.

No I don't eat beads and poop them out...my dog on the other hand......

I have not seen one artist say you cannot sell the beads you make with their tut, exact copies or not.

If there are vague innuendos in the tuts, that they cannot reproduce exact beads for sale, then the contract is again void as the author was not clear in their instructions/statements.

Am I sounding lawyer-ish?

Going back to the Rose, it was the wording that is bothering me. Trademark, one of a kind, her design. The tut shown is very much like a video tut, well pretty much the same. The article does state she learned lampworking by reading and watching videos.

Just saying, words can be a powerful thing and many people who don't know better, will take that article as fact, and seeing another rose, by another beader, will make them think,,,,,well you get my point.

I keep getting sucked in......help me...
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  #929  
Old 2008-12-27, 10:37pm
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Ideas, methods, or systems are not subject to copyright protection. Copyright protection, therefore, is not available for ideas or procedures for doing, making, or building things; scientific or technical methods or discoveries; business operations or procedures; mathematical principles; formulas, algorithms; or any other concept, process, or method of operation.
Section 102 of the copyright law, title 17, United States Code, clearly expresses this principle: “In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.”



Copyright protection extends to a description, explanation, or illustration of an idea or system, assuming that the requirements of the copyright law are met. Copyright in such a case protects the particular literary or pictorial expression chosen by the author. However, it gives the copyright owner no exclusive rights in the idea, method, or system involved.
Suppose, for example, that an author writes a book explaining a new system for food processing. The copyright in the book, which comes into effect at the moment the work is fixed in a tangible form, will prevent others from publishing
the text and illustrations describing the author’s ideas for machinery, processes,
and merchandising methods. But it will not give the author any rights to prevent others from adopting the ideas for commercial purposes or from developing
or using the machinery, processes, or methods described in the book.

Found at this website:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ31.pdf
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  #930  
Old 2008-12-27, 10:54pm
Torch&Marver Torch&Marver is offline
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I pull the following directly from the posted documentation of the U.S. Copyright office:

§ 1308. Exclusive rights

The owner of a design protected under this chapter has the exclusive right to —

(1) make, have made, or import, for sale or for use in trade, any useful article embodying that design; and

(2) sell or distribute for sale or for use in trade any useful article embodying that design.


As this includes the specific word "sell" ... "any useful article embodying that design" - I'm 99.9% certain this would cover the concern about "I bought a tutorial, therefore I should own the design"

§ 1309. Infringement

(e) Infringing Article Defined. — As used in this section, an “infringing article” is any article the design of which has been copied from a design protected under this chapter, without the consent of the owner of the protected design. An infringing article is not an illustration or picture of a protected design in an advertisement, book, periodical, newspaper, photograph, broadcast, motion picture, or similar medium. A design shall not be deemed to have been copied from a protected design if it is original and not substantially similar in appearance to a protected design.

(g) Reproduction for Teaching or Analysis. — It is not an infringement of the exclusive rights of a design owner for a person to reproduce the design in a useful article or in any other form solely for the purpose of teaching, analyzing, or evaluating the appearance, concepts, or techniques embodied in the design, or the function of the useful article embodying the design.

(note: nowhere in the last paragraph does it say "offering a copy of the design for sale")

My source: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap13.html Chapter 131
Protection of Original Designs

For the record, the deluge of copyright info is not to argue with authors who have given permission to copy and sell beads. However, since there is automatic copyright protection for creators of original designs according to this act, I continue to assert that it seems unfair to a) demand authors state up front their own desires for their own creations if they choose to write a tutorial to illustrate the techniques involved and b) to somehow measure the worth of tutorials as less desirable because some artists may choose to exercise their right to retain their copyright by not allowing buyers to automatically copy the beads used to illustrate technique in the tutorials.

I just can't see how paying $15-$20 for a tutorial turns into copyright ownership! I'm still not convinced after all these many pages.

Another interesting area for reading with respect to copyright is the section on "Fair Use"... although it's less clearly and specific to rights of designers it does say the section is media neutral. The first two principles seem most appropriate in this circumstance. The others may be but are worded on this site with specific reference to universities and their use of periodicals, publications and the like so I edited them out. They can be found at the link below.

Principles

Principle 1: Fair use is both technology and medium neutral.

The fair use doctrine applies to uses in digital environments and to any copyrighted work without regard to the medium of the original work. It is important to note, however, that fair use will not apply to licensed resources, unless the terms of controlling agreements specifically defer to Section 107 -- statutory fair use.

Principle 2: Appropriate fair use assertions depend on a case-by-case examination of the facts surrounding each case, and the four factors identified in Section 107 of the U. S. Copyright Act. These factors must be evaluated to determine how they balance in weighing the question, whether or not any particular use is a fair use. The factors to consider are:

1. The purpose or character of the use; including whether such use is of a commercial nature or for nonprofit educational purposes.
2. The nature of the copyrighted work used.
3. The amount and substantiality of the work being used.
4. The effect of the use on markets for or the value of the original work.

In general uses for educational purposes at nonprofit institutions weigh in favor of fair use. Considering factor number two, fair use favors the use of works of a factual nature more than the use of creative, artistic works. With respect to amount used, using less than an entire work, and not that portion which might be viewed as the essence of the work, will weigh more in favor of fair use. As for market effect, uses that have no impact on the market value for the original work weigh in favor of fair use.


http://www.lib.umn.edu/copyright/principles.phtml

Last edited by Torch&Marver; 2008-12-27 at 11:12pm. Reason: to add more fodder to the already long and dreary post
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