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  #1  
Old 2009-02-22, 7:32am
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Default Tutorial copyright limitations

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum and have a question about the re-sale of purchased tutorials. I have purchased tutorials (lampwork & other) in the past and am considering selling some that are no longer of any use to me. I have not created a duplicate...I just want to sell my "original" copy. I researched "copyrights" and believe that this is legal to do so. I googled the First Sale Doctrine and found a Wiki page that states:

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. That means that copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

Given that information, is lampworketc a good place for me to sell some of my tutorials?

Thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 2009-02-22, 8:12am
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That's pretty interesting. I'll have to stay tuned to this thread. This is not a new subject, but this is definitely new information...to me.
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  #3  
Old 2009-02-22, 8:39am
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It may be "legal" (though I believe there are currently some cases under review @ this moment in time concerning e-material), but it's not exactly looked upon a "good manners" in the lampwork community at this point in time.
While you *might* find a buyer, you *also* might find that you end up barred from buying future tutorials from other sellers who *may* choose not to sell to you, or you *may* find that the sellers of the original tutorials have put a "may not be resold" disclaimer in their original tutorial (recognizing that the original law you are quoting is from 1908 & is currently being challenged due to the fact it's OLD & doesn't address the needs of today's society/media/creations completely) & that no one is willing to purchase them from you due to those disclaimers.
~luna

hopefully *ending* this thread before it blows up.
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  #4  
Old 2009-02-22, 8:42am
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How is this different from buying a book, using it for awhile and then reselling?

That has me confused..
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  #5  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:05am
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Thanks Luna, I appreciate your opinion, but... I can buy a used CD and used books from merchants without violating the copyright law, so how is a tutorial different? As long as I don't make copies and try to sell them as my own or try to profit from the sale, I think it should be okay. Does that make sense? The issue goes back to 1909, but it was updated in 1976, so it's not that old. I think this is a truly interesting issue and I am trying to get a feel for what people really think about this. I wouldn't want to knowingly violate any law, so I think I need to explore this further.
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  #6  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:13am
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why are you asking if you have already formed your opinion?
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  #7  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:15am
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From the First-Sale Doctine:

"In 1909 the codification originally applied to copies that had been sold (hence the "first sale doctrine"), but in the 1976 Act it was made to apply to any "owner" of a lawfully made copy or phonorecord (recorded music) regardless of whether it was first sold. So, for example, if the copyright owner licenses someone to make a copy (such as by downloading), then that copy (meaning the tangible medium of expression onto which it was copied under license, be it a hard drive or removable storage medium) may lawfully be sold, lent, traded, or given away."
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  #8  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:16am
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To me it would be the same as selling a DVD or book after you are done with it, as long as you haven't kept a copy (electronic or printed). But I never took copyright law in law school.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:22am
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this is gonna be interesting to say the least.

I vote don't do it. Weather it's legal or not, there's no way to prove you actually removed a copy from your pc, and who;s to say you won't be selling 100 copys of the same tutorial.
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  #10  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:24am
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Hi Yellowbird,

I don't think I've formed my opinion yet...I'm just gathering information that will allow me to make an informed decision. I do have a bias towards the ability to sell material that I have purchased, but I would like to hear other people's viewpoints.
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  #11  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaGirlBT View Post
To me it would be the same as selling a DVD or book after you are done with it, as long as you haven't kept a copy (electronic or printed). But I never took copyright law in law school.
That is my understanding as well. As long as you don't keep a copy it is fine. It is no different than re-selling anything else that you have purchased. I am sure the many authors out there would love to have all the used bookstores be forbidden from from re-selling their books, but it doesn't work that way and shouldn't.
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  #12  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzanne View Post
this is gonna be interesting to say the least.

I vote don't do it. Weather it's legal or not, there's no way to prove you actually removed a copy from your pc, and who;s to say you won't be selling 100 copys of the same tutorial.
Hi Suzanne,

I hear what you are saying, but I would add that anyone that does what you are suggesting is just a common "criminal." I do believe that most people are honest & law-abiding.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack View Post
Hi Suzanne,

I hear what you are saying, but I would add that anyone that does what you are suggesting is just a common "criminal." I do believe that most people are honest & law-abiding.
I think that you will find more people doing tutorials in the future that come with a "key". That is why I think selling people a tut on a CD is better than doing the download thing. Building in protection to a downloaded application is beyond most people's capabilities.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:33am
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I agree that it would be like selling your copies of magazines, books, DVD's, etc. that you've purchased and no longer want. I don't think there is any difference. It's nice to see that you went to the trouble to research the issue and I'm sure that if it were illegal to sell or give away copywrited articles most of us would be in trouble...I know I would because I donate most of my old magazines to hospitals and most of my books to fundraisers.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:38am
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I agree with you, Jack, most people are honest and law-abiding. As far as the law as of today, I believe you are free to sell your original purchase, leaving you no copy at all.

However, here is my personal feeling on the subject: Tutorial writers are taking a lot of time and giving of their hard-earned experience and knowledge to produce a first-class tutorial. I would not sell any tutorial I have out of respect for them and their ability to possibly, hopefully, recoup some of their expenses in time and talent that they have invested in the project.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:38am
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Quote:
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Hi Suzanne,

I hear what you are saying, but I would add that anyone that does what you are suggesting is just a common "criminal." I do believe that most people are honest & law-abiding.
unafortunatly there have been isssues with tutorials. One copy was purchased and several were sent out as gifts for other people. THis happened to many tutorial writers. As much as I'd like to believe most people are honest I'm affraid that a lot of people aren't
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  #17  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e. mort View Post
I think that you will find more people doing tutorials in the future that come with a "key". That is why I think selling people a tut on a CD is better than doing the download thing. Building in protection to a downloaded application is beyond most people's capabilities.
Hi Eric,

Great point, but in my experience, a cd that requires a "key," (like microsoft for example) is meant to protect proprietary software. I don't view copyrighted software as being similar to a tutorial. I liken a tutorial to yarn patterns that my wife buys. There is nothing said that she can't give or sell the pattern to her friends, relatives or others. Also, there are no restrictions on the product that she produces from that pattern. So, that being said, I don't see how a tutorial is different from selling an used book, etc...
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I agree with you, Jack, most people are honest and law-abiding. As far as the law as of today, I believe you are free to sell your original purchase, leaving you no copy at all.

However, here is my personal feeling on the subject: Tutorial writers are taking a lot of time and giving of their hard-earned experience and knowledge to produce a first-class tutorial. I would not sell any tutorial I have out of respect for them and their ability to possibly, hopefully, recoup some of their expenses in time and talent that they have invested in the project.
Pam, I think that's a valid and well-thought opinion...thanks!
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  #19  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredinCoquille View Post
I agree that it would be like selling your copies of magazines, books, DVD's, etc. that you've purchased and no longer want. I don't think there is any difference. It's nice to see that you went to the trouble to research the issue and I'm sure that if it were illegal to sell or give away copywrited articles most of us would be in trouble...I know I would because I donate most of my old magazines to hospitals and most of my books to fundraisers.
What a nice thing to do!!!! Thanks for the input!
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  #20  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack View Post
Hello all,

I'm new to this forum and have a question about the re-sale of purchased tutorials. I have purchased tutorials (lampwork & other) in the past and am considering selling some that are no longer of any use to me. I have not created a duplicate...I just want to sell my "original" copy. I researched "copyrights" and believe that this is legal to do so. I googled the First Sale Doctrine and found a Wiki page that states:


Given that information, is lampworketc a good place for me to sell some of my tutorials?

Thanks in advance!
First off, I want to thank you for caring enough to ask about this. If you didn't care or had no ethics, you wouldn't have made the effort and I appreciate that. I hope you don't get dealt a ration of crap for asking, because I think it was a stand-up thing to do.

As a seller of tutorials myself, I can honestly say that if you have not made a duplicate copy of the tutorial, and would just like to recoup some of your expense by selling your electronic file to someone else, I don't personally have a problem with this. (We are all trying to put food on the table.) I am NOT speaking for other tutorial writers. I don't know if they would be upset or not, or if they even have any grounds to be upset. I don't even pretend to know the bottom line law about this. I think there is a lot of misinterpretation going on in regard to digital copyright.

As far as that goes, as a buyer of tutorials also, I would not resell my digital files. Mainly that is because when I buy a book, I have a physical book in my hands...a concrete item that had an expense in its making. I've paid for the physical item, not only the knowledge I got from it.

With a digital file, I really did only pay for the knowledge I got from it. Any physical, tangible evidence of the tutorial was made by my own hands when I printed it. I don't want to get that knowledge, then ask for my money back. LOL I figure if I learned how to do boro on a minor with a concentrator and it cost me $20..well that was worth it and I feel no need to try and recoup my investment. I got my money's worth.

However, if I had purchased a book (which by the way costs more to do it that way...I sell my tutorials in 3 formats and the books cost way more), I would not hesitate to resell that book.

Don't ask me to explain the emotional difference there because I can't do it. All I know is that one feels ok and the other doesn't.

This post probably makes me the queen of contradiction, but I can't help it. Basically, I don't mind if you do it to me, but I wouldn't do it to you. LOL

Pretty helpful, huh? LOL

~~Mary
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  #21  
Old 2009-02-22, 9:51am
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It may be legal, but is it ethical? Just because you can do it, does not make it the right thing to do.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:53am
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Wow... juggling nitroglycerine here...

My 2c is that I wouldn't re-sell a tutorial or instructional item that was offered in a downloadable format - whereas I would feel free to sell something which was sold in a tangible medium such as print or dvd/cd form. There is just such a large grey area otherwise...
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:56am
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I don't see it as any different than selling a book or CD either and wouldn't frown on anyone doing it. I think the lampwork community is divided on this issue with some thinking you shouldn't out of respect to the author and others thinking it is perfectly fine.
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Old 2009-02-22, 9:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
First off, I want to thank you for caring enough to ask about this. If you didn't care or had no ethics, you wouldn't have made the effort and I appreciate that. I hope you don't get dealt a ration of crap for asking, because I think it was a stand-up thing to do.

As a seller of tutorials myself, I can honestly say that if you have not made a duplicate copy of the tutorial, and would just like to recoup some of your expense by selling your electronic file to someone else, I don't personally have a problem with this. (We are all trying to put food on the table.) I am NOT speaking for other tutorial writers. I don't know if they would be upset or not, or if they even have any grounds to be upset. I don't even pretend to know the bottom line law about this. I think there is a lot of misinterpretation going on in regard to digital copyright.

As far as that goes, as a buyer of tutorials also, I would not resell my digital files. Mainly that is because when I buy a book, I have a physical book in my hands...a concrete item that had an expense in its making. I've paid for the physical item, not only the knowledge I got from it.

With a digital file, I really did only pay for the knowledge I got from it. Any physical, tangible evidence of the tutorial was made by my own hands when I printed it. I don't want to get that knowledge, then ask for my money back. LOL I figure if I learned how to do boro on a minor with a concentrator and it cost me $20..well that was worth it and I feel no need to try and recoup my investment. I got my money's worth.

However, if I had purchased a book (which by the way costs more to do it that way...I sell my tutorials in 3 formats and the books cost way more), I would not hesitate to resell that book.

Don't ask me to explain the emotional difference there because I can't do it. All I know is that one feels ok and the other doesn't.

This post probably makes me the queen of contradiction, but I can't help it. Basically, I don't mind if you do it to me, but I wouldn't do it to you. LOL

Pretty helpful, huh? LOL

~~Mary
Hi Mary,

What an honest, well thought response...that's the kind of feedback that I'm looking for.
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Old 2009-02-22, 10:00am
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Heather, BunYip, & Squid...thanks for your valuable opinions!
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  #26  
Old 2009-02-22, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I agree with you, Jack, most people are honest and law-abiding. As far as the law as of today, I believe you are free to sell your original purchase, leaving you no copy at all.

However, here is my personal feeling on the subject: Tutorial writers are taking a lot of time and giving of their hard-earned experience and knowledge to produce a first-class tutorial. I would not sell any tutorial I have out of respect for them and their ability to possibly, hopefully, recoup some of their expenses in time and talent that they have invested in the project.
And book authors are different how?
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Old 2009-02-22, 10:04am
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I don't get the whole 'respect to the author argument' either, Squid. I really don't.

That doesn't come into play at all when reselling a book. If this was about 'respect to the author', then we wouldn't resell books either and cost the author a fresh sale. That doesn't hold water.

To me, it is all about a tangible concrete item having a value in and of itself. A book is valuable. A book took effort beyond that of the artist to be made. It contains materials that cost money and are worth money. Hell, even blank books have a price.

An electronic file though, is just the sweat and sharing of the artist (and possibly photographer), put out in a raw form. Well, maybe I shouldn't say raw because some of these tutorials are very well finished. Naked maybe is a better word?? But when you buy a digital file you are paying for information only, and the work that went behind it.

When you buy a book, you are paying above and beyond the information alone, AND there is more assuredly only the single copy still available. Nothing has been duplicated and there is usually no question about it. It IS possible to copy a book, then sell the book, but there is no doubt that THAT is illegal. LOL Copying a digital file and reselling the 'original'...well who knows or not? I don't. I just know it feels funny. LOL

Theoretically speaking, if one sells their original and doesn't keep a copy...then it is the same (to me) as selling a printed book. However, I still wouldn't do it because it doesn't feel right to me for some reason...I guess because you aren't selling an ITEM, you are selling someone else's work...because you honestly don't have an ITEM to sell.

~~Mary
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Old 2009-02-22, 10:05am
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Hi All,

From what I am hearing, it sounds like the choice to sell or not sell is a personal one. Due to the nature of the topic, no matter the choice...it also sounds like there will always be some disagreement.
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Old 2009-02-22, 10:09am
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It has always been a personal choice...just like the buyer has a personal choice over whether or not to purchase it.

I guess you have the option of not reselling them and not upsetting anybody. Or reselling them and upsetting a percentage of people. LOL

Good luck.
~~Mary
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Old 2009-02-22, 10:09am
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Hi All,

From what I am hearing, it sounds like the choice to sell or not sell is a personal one. Due to the nature of the topic, no matter the choice...it also sounds like there will always be some disagreement.
Yep
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