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  #1  
Old 2007-05-28, 11:58pm
Elyn Elyn is offline
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Default air compressors instead of oxygen?/outside?

I recently re-discovered this website. I have been reading lots of old posts, and expect my questions are answered somewhere in them, but haven't found them yet. So sorry if I am redundant. I am also pretty much a newbie at beads/lampworking, and preparing to set up my own space at home, after working in a studio elsewhere.

A professional glassworker told me that she uses oxygen but I could use an air compressor instead, and a small one would cost maybe $30. I have been looking at site info and other website info, and see nothing about that. Is is true? What I see are oxygen compressors, and suggestions to use an air compressor to boost the power of the O2 compressor--(and nothing for $30--maybe I misunderstood what she was telling me). I'm thinking I need oxygen, and I have read why an O2 compressor might be preferable, but I am wondering how often people have to refill tanks if they use tanks. If/when I get set up, I expect to torch maybe 2 hrs/day on average, mostly boro. My husband occ. welds and has the same O2 tank for 10+yrs and it is a small tank, and he hasn't had to refill it. He thinks refilling tanks would not be a problem or would be extremely rare. Is that people's experience?

From reading info about exhaust fans and safety issues, I expect my ideas were way too casual. I was thinking an attic fan in a window. Since it will take awhile to to be set up correctly and safely, what about working outside in the meantime? I have a covered patio and could maybe put up a windbreak on one side.

If there are tutorials on setting up a studio, and someone tells me how to access them, I will appreciate it! If it is obvious, I'll laugh at myself, and thank you again for helping me see it.

I have really appreciated all the info I have seen so far, and links to people's websites, and pictures of their work!
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  #2  
Old 2007-05-29, 4:32am
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I had to smile when I read your post. I want to know what your husband's secret is!

The Arnold Zenit torch can use air in addition to oxygen to cool the flame, but most glass torches recommend /require a source of oxygen, either by using tanked oxy or an oxygen generator. The refurbished medical oxygen concentrators, which work using the same principle, are cheaper, but may not have enough oomph to run your boro torch.

(I would venture a guess and say that you need oxygen to work boro, as many of the colors, as I understand it, require an oxygenated environment to bring out the colors, if nothing else -- but there's probably somebody who's managed to make something beautiful using a Hothead or other venturi system, although it might have taken them a while to do it.)

Oxygen concentrators cost between 250.00 and 500.00 refurbished, and generators run between 1500.00 to 10,000.00 for a commercial unit. Many of the generators use holding tanks and air compressors to boost power.

As far as tanked oxygen goes, you probably won't have the same luck as your husband! Glass torches tend use a lot more oxy than fuel gas.

Depending on the torch, a person can run through an entire tank in a week or even in one day, though a five-gallon bottle of propane can last for a couple of months. I usually work on GTT Lynx, and I usually fill two medium oxy tanks a week. When I use the Cheetah, a medium-sized torch, it's twice that amount.
--------------------------

The ventilation system needed has a lot to do with the size torch you have and what you're making with it. I've heard 650 cfm mentioned as a minimum, though I'll admit my unit is a bit smaller -- though I do have a clean air passive intake behind me that brings fresh air past my head and up through the vent above the torch, so I feel I can get away with it. But don't skimp on anything that can affect your health.

I hope the information I've given is helpful in getting started-- it's accurate to the best of my knowlege, though I'm sure others will weigh in with more and better opinions shortly. There is a lot of good information on the topics you've mentioned in the archives both here and on other forums. I'm sure I have read about somebody using air and a welding torch to melt glass, maybe on another forum. I don't think it was boro, but I could be wrong. I want to say it was Mark W. on WC, but I could be mistaken. Maybe just type in the question on Google -- you know, using air instead of oxy with a glass torch and see what you get.

Good luck and happy melting!
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  #3  
Old 2007-05-31, 5:00pm
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When I was using tank Oxy I went through a tank a week. At $35.00 a week it was easy math to justify buying a generator.
Scott
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  #4  
Old 2007-05-31, 6:37pm
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I had to smile when I read what your hubby thought! Mine just said practically the same thing! He was so proud of himself for giving me $ for an oxygen tank of my own (not supposed to touch his) for my Mother's Day present. . . very nice, but I've already refilled twice and will need to again next week. I have a Minor torch, and it does so much better with the oxy tank because I like to make big soft glass beads. BUT after one torching session, I saw that needle on the tank sink, and I've made a conscious effort to not torch as much. Don't think there's any easy solution. You're going to have so much fun torchin', though!
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  #5  
Old 2007-05-31, 10:38pm
Elyn Elyn is offline
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Thanks for the input from all!

AlaskaBarb--how big is a medium size tank? 2-3'?

Scott--do you use a compressor or generator? $35 a week or more for O2 tanks is a lot, but seems like it would take a long time to recoup the $1000 to $1500 for a generator. The compressor would pay off sooner, I think.

AngelinaBeadalina--have you used a compressor or generator? So the large beads don't do as well without oxygen tank use? (BTW, I notice your "other Illinois address--I was born in Carbondale, but moved away as a child.)

I am really learning alot on this website, but I am also worrying about all the costs involved in art glass, that I hadn't realized.

Thank you all so much for your responses!
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  #6  
Old 2007-06-01, 2:34pm
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Elyn, I use a OGSI 15 Generator and it paid for itself in about 14 months. I've had it for two years and the rest is gravy.

Plus I feel pure oxygen is very important if your working with exotic glass like raku. Also if your encasing with clear.
Scott
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  #7  
Old 2007-06-01, 2:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyn View Post
Thanks for the input from all!

AlaskaBarb--how big is a medium size tank? 2-3'?

Scott--do you use a compressor or generator? $35 a week or more for O2 tanks is a lot, but seems like it would take a long time to recoup the $1000 to $1500 for a generator. The compressor would pay off sooner, I think.

AngelinaBeadalina--have you used a compressor or generator? So the large beads don't do as well without oxygen tank use? (BTW, I notice your "other Illinois address--I was born in Carbondale, but moved away as a child.)

I am really learning alot on this website, but I am also worrying about all the costs involved in art glass, that I hadn't realized.

Thank you all so much for your responses!

I think a compressor would work, but the flame would be very cold like a hothead torch.

oxygen is the only way
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  #8  
Old 2007-06-01, 2:57pm
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What about starting out on a hot head torch and doing soft glass at first? Less cost, won't have to worry about oxygen, much easier to set up than a full on torch set up.

I went through a tank of oxy a week on a national 8m torch - easily doing soft glass not boro. I don't remember the amount of oxy the tank holds but its a 4 ft tall tank. My refills are only $10 - $15 depending on who's working that day..lol. But I was always worrying about running out and its a pain lugging the tank every week to the gas guy, so I bought a refurbished oxygen concentrator for $300. Can't do boro but its sufficient for soft glass.

Air Compressors are different from oxygen concentrators/generators. As far as I know an air compressor will not work with a torch very well. You need pure oxygen to help the propane combust hot enough to melt glass properly.
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  #9  
Old 2007-06-01, 3:34pm
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Hot heads are not cheap! A canister of mapp gas cost me $8.50 three years ago. It would take three canisters every time I torch. Thats $25.50 a day. Now I torch 4 or 5 days out of the week. Lets say 4 times and do the math. Thats $102.00 a week. $408.00 a month, $4896 a year. You can set the hot head up on a bulk fuel tank and reduce the expense, But still pricey'
I go through two tanks of propane a year. At $15.00 a fill up. My lynx paid for itself in a couple of months.

If your serious about making money as a lampworker. spend the money to do it right. It will pay off in the long run.
Scott
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  #10  
Old 2007-06-01, 3:40pm
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Quote:
Hot heads are not cheap! A canister of mapp gas cost me $8.50 three years ago.
I wasn't talking about mapp I was talking about bulk propane. I've never used mapp on the hothead I was using so I never had a cost issue. the torch is 35- 50 bucks its a cheap way to try out glass w/out going whole hog.

If you want seriously do production then you have to spend the bucks initially to make it profitable in the long run.
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  #11  
Old 2007-06-01, 3:46pm
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Suzanne, I know what you mean. I started out on a hot head as well. And it's a good way to try lampworking without a large layout of money. After all not everyone that try's will stick with it. I think it's the Burns LOL
Scott
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  #12  
Old 2007-06-01, 3:53pm
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Hey, Elyn, Carbondale is just about an hour south of here. DH was born & grew up in Centralia and got his degree from SIU. I'm a Kentucky girl.
I had a used medical oxygen concentrator that I bought for $200. It might have been okay if I only did smaller beads, but it was stretching it to do my bigger sculptural beads and keep them warm. I didn't realize until I got the oxygen tank just how much I had adapted my particular style to the limitations of not really having enough oxygen to do what I wanted to do. Yes, I made big, sculptural beads, but I limited myself to colors that turn out cool looking with a reducing flame (ivory gets mottled and darker in spots; Nile green and light and dark turquoises all get really cool reddish streaks that usually went well with my mystical/ancient themes). I didn't play with transparents, certainly didn't try encasing in clear. Now, I just made a 4" bead without too much trouble. . . I can't wait to expand to using some transparents and light colors and. . . Well, that might be more info than you need about one person's experience, but I wish I'd realized when I was setting up stuff that I would grow into wanting these things. If I'd known more then, while I still had $$ saved up for buying stuff, I probably would've bought a generator and also stashed more money to have for oxy tank refills if that ended up being the only way to go.
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Old 2007-06-02, 5:08am
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Angelina,
You can couple a second concentrator to you line and increase your O2 input.
Joan
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  #14  
Old 2007-06-02, 7:58am
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I think who ever told you they use a compressor. either had no idea what they were talking about. Because there are no torches that run oncompressed air in place of o2. Tho there are some torches that use air in addishion to fuel and o2. like a herbert arnald torch or a maya torch.

OR they are using a large o2 genarator and a air compressor and forgot the part about the genarator. large o2 genarators need an air compressor to run the genarator.

Gosh you bead workers should consider your self lucky. Before We got our genarator. We where going threw a K tank a day some times 2 at $25 each every day, day in and day out.

Buying the genarator and air compressor was the best $4,500 investment I ever made, I havn't toched tanked o2 in 7+ years now.
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Old 2007-06-02, 5:04pm
jokersdesign jokersdesign is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smutboy420 View Post
I think who ever told you they use a compressor. either had no idea what they were talking about. Because there are no torches that run oncompressed air in place of o2. Tho there are some torches that use air in addishion to fuel and o2. like a herbert arnald torch or a maya torch.
Smutboy lied to you! JK LOL

this is your only option that I know of if you don't want to use oxygen


http://www.jplampwork.com/a3torch.htm
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  #16  
Old 2007-06-02, 5:37pm
smutboy420 smutboy420 is offline
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I do have to say I stand corrected on that. I have never seen that torch with the fish tank air pump on it.

I do know of a few Air fuel torches that use air/fule instead of o2 and fule.
But not many that use it threw a hose from a compressor.
Like a hot head uses air and fuel. or a prest-o-lite torch that Uses the same gas air mix threw the holes on the sides of the tips.
There are some jewlers torches that can be run on Air with the right tips But They don't work all that great and are not to hot. They could maybe work for soft glass. I don't know about the colors or not tho.
Not to derail hear But if telling the o2 guy to take a hike is the holy grail.
I wonder If any one has ever used a tiny tiny tiny electric glory hole for beads. I notice the heat of the biggest torch on that site is 2,015f
My electric melting furnaces can go to that no problem. So now I'm picturing some thing like that on its side With and opening about 4 inches wide and a few inches deep and embeded elements to keep from making contact with them. Kind of like one of them electroglass glory holes. Just way way smalller bead scale and not $50,000 no o2 or gas just an electric outlet.
I've seen tiny gas fired ones.
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Old 2007-06-02, 5:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smutboy420 View Post
I do have to say I stand corrected on that. I have never seen that torch with the fish tank air pump on it.

I do know of a few Air fuel torches that use air/fule instead of o2 and fule.
But not many that use it threw a hose from a compressor.
Like a hot head uses air and fuel. or a prest-o-lite torch that Uses the same gas air mix threw the holes on the sides of the tips.
There are some jewlers torches that can be run on Air with the right tips But They don't work all that great and are not to hot. They could maybe work for soft glass. I don't know about the colors or not tho.
Not to derail hear But if telling the o2 guy to take a hike is the holy grail.
I wonder If any one has ever used a tiny tiny tiny electric glory hole for beads. I notice the heat of the biggest torch on that site is 2,015f
My electric melting furnaces can go to that no problem. So now I'm picturing some thing like that on its side With and opening about 4 inches wide and a few inches deep and embeded elements to keep from making contact with them. Kind of like one of them electroglass glory holes. Just way way smalller bead scale and not $50,000 no o2 or gas just an electric outlet.
I've seen tiny gas fired ones.

that would be sweet smutboy.

In glass blowers companion book there a plans for a small glory hole bead maker
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  #18  
Old 2007-06-02, 7:05pm
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That is only for soft glass as in sataki. Not Moretti or Lausche. Sorry about that. I have been using two oxy cons together. Have had some fun with them. Now I have a tank of oxygen that I use for boro. Would love to have another one to add to the one that I have. So it isn't cheap any way you go. Just add slowly and you will be surprised how fast you will be up and running. Good luck.
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Old 2007-07-15, 12:17pm
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yes there is a torch that you can use inside or out that uses an air compressor and does not require oxygen. here is a link. look at the "N" tips for the national 3a/b torch. i have one of these torches as well as both oxygen and air tips. it is a very versitile torch. i even have a crossfire head that has 2 air/gas burners located 180° apart so that you get heating from 2 sides at once. you will only be able to use this torch with soft glass, and never boro.

http://www.nationaltorch.com/tips.html
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Old 2007-07-17, 9:32pm
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One downside of using a compressor that most seem to have overlooked is that many compressors require some type of lubrication (oil) and that ends up being carried down the air line to some degree as well. Once you have run your torch on an 'air' compressor you can NEVER connect it up to a source of pure oxygen as you risk an explosion!
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Old 2007-07-28, 11:30pm
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Well, all the original torches from the main regions, where beads were produced in last two centuries were driven with compressed air/gas. These torches can be seen in the Lauscha region as well in northern Bohemia. The flame is wider and hot enough for soft glass (Ornela, Lauscha, Effetre etc.), not for boro.
The czech torches have the flame usually waterleveled, not pointed up, like the usual torches in US today. In addition, the torch is equipped with eye protection shield. The torch uses no maintanence koi-pond air compressor, that works with membrane and do not uses oil, so you can use your torch with oxygen without problems.
I use such a torch, so if you are interested, i can post photos of it.
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Old 2007-08-02, 1:54pm
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Hi
I just bought an oxygen consentrator from oxygen plus medical for 370.00 shipped with 5 year warranty. these units are rebuilt medical units and work great on your softer glass. To answer your other question a small 20 pound air tank cost me about 18.00 to fill not counting tank rental, I used this tank up in about a half hour. I don't know about you but I don't want to spend that kind of money. Do yourself a favor and contact Larry LaClair at oxygen plus medical he was great to deal with and he knew his stuff. From now on free oxygen for me

bob
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Old 2007-08-23, 8:41am
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There is one other possibility. The larger oxy generators require an air compressor to provide medium pressure air to the unit at a fairly high cfm rating. This allows the unit to generate enough oxygen to provide for several torches or other applications where appropriate.

Bob
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Old 2007-08-23, 9:06am
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I would like to confirm that the first two lampworkers I watched make goblets,vases,flowers,etc.....worked on crossfire burners fueled by propane and compressed air. ~no O2 the set up consists of a small air compressor with a simple "t" connection to the cross fire set up.

I have a couple HA Zenit burners as well as a few other torches that incorporated the use of compressed air in addition to O2 or can be adjusted to use Air/propane for soda lime & soft glasses.

Lewis Wilson had recently posted a newer set up I found interesting on the gldg: http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthr...=volcano+torch

(post # 5
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50mm & 40mm Herbert Arnold Zenit Burners,Carlisle cc/cc+/mini,Liquid O2.
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Old 2007-08-23, 9:21am
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I wonder how big the compressor has to be. I am purchasing one this weekend .
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Old 2007-08-23, 9:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osvold View Post
Well, all the original torches from the main regions, where beads were produced in last two centuries were driven with compressed air/gas. These torches can be seen in the Lauscha region as well in northern Bohemia. The flame is wider and hot enough for soft glass (Ornela, Lauscha, Effetre etc.), not for boro.
The czech torches have the flame usually waterleveled, not pointed up, like the usual torches in US today. In addition, the torch is equipped with eye protection shield. The torch uses no maintanence koi-pond air compressor, that works with membrane and do not uses oil, so you can use your torch with oxygen without problems.
I use such a torch, so if you are interested, i can post photos of it.
I would love to see pics of your torch.
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Old 2007-08-23, 10:28am
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I would love to see pics of your torch.
Me too.
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  #28  
Old 2007-08-23, 1:59pm
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To answer the OP's original question: Yes, there are torches that use compressed air instead of oxygen. But ....

Let's step back for a second, and look at the big picture ...

All of the torches that we use burn a fuel in order to generate heat. All combustion needs oxygen. There is a minimum level of oxygen necessary for combustion to occur (which varies with the fuel and the atmosphere within which the combustion is trying to take place). The air around us is about 21% oxygen and 75% nitrogen. This level of oxygen is sufficient for most gasses to burn. As one adds more oxygen to the combustion, the temperature of the flame increases, up to a maximum temperature for that particular fuel.

So, let’s look at different situations, and how oxygen is introduced into the flame:
1) If you take your standard surface mix or premix torch, open just the gas valve, and light the torch, the only oxygen available for combustion is the ambient air around the flame. This is probably the coolest flame you will ever achieve with that fuel (and most likely a very reducing flame at that).

2) Torches such as the Hot Head, Exact hand torches, Bunsen burners, etc. all use some form of a venturi effect to draw more outside air into the flame. This does contribute more air, and hence more oxygen, to the combustion. The faster the fuel passes through the venturi, the more air will be sucked in. There are obviously limitations to this system:
a) there is a limit to how much additional air can be added to the combustion process, and

b) the additional air is still limited to about 21% oxygen.
3) To add even more air (and hence oxygen) than available from the venturi effect, air compressors or air pumps are used. Examples include the Japanese torches, the Bohemian torches, the National 3A torch configured with the N tips, etc. These torches will have a higher flame temperature than an ambient air torch or a venturi torch, but will still be below the maximum temperature possible from the fuel.

The smallest of these torches are usually only used on the very soft Japanese glass (ex: Satake & Kinari). The larger torches are hot enough to use the US and Italian glass (ex: Moretti or Lausche), but usually not for boro.

Do note that these torches usually require a high VOLUME of air, and not necessary a high PRESSURE of air. Most air compressors are designed to produce a high PRESSURE, not volume. So, if you do have a torch that works on compressed air, make sure that your air source will be able to supply the necessary VOLUME. Trying to run one of these torches on a standard air compressor will over tax the poor little compressor. So please, do not try your $30 air compressor.

4) To get the absolute hottest flame, we need to introduce an air source that is more oxygen-rich. For this, we usually turn to oxygen concentrators, oxygen generators, or compressed oxygen.

Do note that every oxy/fuel torch has a specification of just how much oxygen it needs. Larger torches need more oxygen. You need to make sure that your oxygen source is capable of delivering the necessary volume of oxygen needed, otherwise, the torch will not be able to deliver the maximum heat it was designed to produce.
There are some torches, such as those by Herbert Arnold, that use *both* oxygen and compressed air. This can allow you to individually adjust the temperature and the heat (not the same thing, by the way).

Every torch is designed to use a certain fuel (or fuels), and a certain air/oxygen source. Trying to use a different air/oxygen source than what a torch is designed for will lead to disappointing results (at best), or a very dangerous situation (at worst). Unless you really know what you are doing, please do not try and use a different fuel and/or air/oxygen source in any torch!

So, back to the original question: When you are setting up your studio, please use the fuel and air/oxygen for which your torch was designed. If your situation is such that you can not have compressed oxygen (or don’t want to pay to have the bottles refilled often), then either get an oxygen concentrator, or get a torch that is designed to run on compressed air (and get a suitable air pump, not a $30 air compressor).

Malcolm
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Old 2007-08-23, 6:56pm
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Awesome information Malcolm - thanks for taking the time to post it. The compressor I am getting is a 3 hp, 60 gal one, but I think I will stick with my oxycons for now.
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Old 2007-08-23, 7:16pm
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Originally Posted by squid View Post
Awesome information Malcolm - thanks for taking the time to post it. The compressor I am getting is a 3 hp, 60 gal one, but I think I will stick with my oxycons for now.
When you get an air compressor, you need to check for 2 things (none of which you mentioned):

1) Max Pressure & volume

Usually, it'll say something like:

120 psi @ 5 cfpm,
90 psi @ 8 cfpm

What this means is that it can put out 8 cubic feet per minute at 90 psi, but only 5 cubic feet per minute at 120 psi.

2) Check the rated duty cycle. This tells you: how long can you run the thing continuously. Many smaller compressors have something like only a 15-20% duty cycle. This means you run it for 2 minutes, then have to let them rest for 8 minutes.

Hypothetical example:
Your 60 gallon tank equals about 227 liters. If your air-burning torch uses 15 liters/minute, you'll drain the tank in 15 minutes. How long would you compressor need to run to re-fill it? If it takes 10 minutes to re-fill the tank, you will have the compressor running over 66% of the time. You'd burn out your compressor if it was only rated at a 20% duty cycle.

Like I said, most compressors are designed for high PRESSURE, not high VOLUME. You need to select a compressor for your needs just like you would any other tool.

Malcolm
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