Lampwork Etc.
 
Mountain Glass Arts

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Frantz Art Glass & Supply

Beads of Courage


 
  #1  
Old 2013-04-16, 5:16am
Roshini Roshini is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 09, 2012
Posts: 30
Default Using the torch for welding mild steel

I wanted to make a stem with little branches out of a 4mm mild steel rod to go with a set of glass flowers I made. I tried melting it at the torch. It was easy to bend it after some heating, but the surface of the MS rod seemed to kind of erode away. And on further heating it sparked out in different directions and I quickly gave up.

Anyway my question is, do any of you folks out there do metal welding with your lampworking torches? I have a lynx. Being able to weld metal would certainly add to the appeal of a glass sculpture.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2013-04-16, 6:14am
Dragonharper's Avatar
Dragonharper Dragonharper is offline
Now part of the Dark Side
 
Join Date: Jul 02, 2010
Location: North Central PA
Posts: 966
Default

Welding steel with a torch is an art. You will definitely need some filler rod, usually copper covered mild steel, the copper keeps the rod from rusting. A hand torch is better, you will need one hand for the torch and the other for the filler rod. A good work surface is fire brick, the kind used in wood and coal stoves.
__________________
Roy
Hot glass does not crack.
Unless it is glowing and drippy, hot glass looks like cold glass.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2013-04-16, 7:32am
Rough_necked's Avatar
Rough_necked Rough_necked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 01, 2012
Posts: 198
Default

A lamp work torch flame is huge for welding. And propane doesn't burn in the proper range to get awesome welds.

The metal erodes due to the oxygen in the flame. Try to go onto the reducing side and it shouldn't be as bad. This is why most welding setups are premix. There is a better mix with the oxy then. The fire is what shields the weld from oxy.

To really weld the candles should be just above the puddle. It is hard when you have more than one.

If you want to do small lightweight welding try a smith little torch.

Chuck
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2013-04-16, 7:33am
Rough_necked's Avatar
Rough_necked Rough_necked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 01, 2012
Posts: 198
Default

Oh and you can use an old metal coat hanger as fill rod. No need for a run to the weld shop.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2013-04-16, 7:55am
losthelm losthelm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2008
Location: Albion NY
Posts: 517
Default

Most of the wire coat hangers have paint or are otherwise coated with plastic crap, or varnish its probibly a better idea to find something else.

Your going to need to make sure everything is clean before you begin and heat the wire till its hot add some flux and then heat it a little more till it just starts to melt, and fuses together.
the Sparks your throwing off are due to either to much Oxigen in the flame or simply getting the wire to hot. your going to want a wire or welding rod smaller than what your trying to weld.

An easier option may be to use a flux coated brazing rod. once you reach around 1250-1300 it should wick in like solder. Just add a little and then add a little more, the flux coating will melt into the seam and help remove oxides and such before the brass is drawn in and forces the flux out. the brass/flux rod will move toward the heat, so heat the seam not the fluxed rod.


I would advise not useing your lampwork torch if you a friend with a better setup.

The flame characteristacs just put in to much heat without enough control on the flame sizes for small work.
You could use a smith little torch but it takes a bit of pratice.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2013-04-16, 8:32am
Talonst Talonst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 11, 2011
Posts: 152
Default

Typically Oxy/acetylene is used for welding steel. If you have a little smith torch or MAPP gas torch you might be able to get good results silver soldering copper rod/tube and then use something like liver of sulphur to patina the copper.

Link for copper patination techniques: http://www.magpiegemstones.com/coppe...er_patina.html
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2013-04-16, 5:03pm
Baywinger's Avatar
Baywinger Baywinger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 06, 2011
Location: SF bay area
Posts: 1,470
Default

you might try brazing instead, that is done at lower temps than welding, you would need a flux coated brazing rod
__________________
Morgan
Bethlehem Champion
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
#C-151
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2013-04-16, 5:18pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Can't weld with propane, you can braze (brass rod) with it or cut but you can't weld
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2013-04-17, 1:38am
Roshini Roshini is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 09, 2012
Posts: 30
Default

Thanks all for the feedback! I use a lynx torch which can give a reasonably small flame. But yes it is by adding more oxygen that I get a sharper small flame which is a problem if the oxygen is causing the metal to erode in the flame. I don't have access to any other torch as of now. And umm.. what's 'the puddle'?
I will look out for a flux, that will probably solve half my problem. I looked up brazing on wikipedia and I guess that should work too. What kind of metal should the brazing rod and the two materials I am joining be? I also looked up silver soldering copper and it seems to have a pretty low melting point.. will the torch burn it out? Patina on copper would certainly look pretty, thanks for the link!
Also how does one clean the surface before welding, as the Mild steel (MS) rods I have seem to be coated with copper and some rust perhaps.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2013-04-17, 3:45am
Rough_necked's Avatar
Rough_necked Rough_necked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 01, 2012
Posts: 198
Default

The puddle is molten metal. It is where the 2 pieces are fused.

You don't use the tip of the flame when welding so the pinpoint flame of a lynx really doesn't matter. You weld with the tip of the candle and the rest of the flame consumes the oxygen and shields the metal from it.

I have used some pretty beat up rods before. As long as there is no rust they should be ok. Take a light sandpaper to them if they are. Lightly sand the base metals if they are rusty also. Clean metal works best.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2013-04-17, 3:58am
losthelm losthelm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2008
Location: Albion NY
Posts: 517
Default

Rust can be removed with a wire brush, sand paper, or steel wool.
Copper will not interfere with the bond, most oxy/fuel mild steel rods come with a copper coating to reduce rust and improve proformance for use with other welding equipment.

Places you might find brazing rod.
Welding shops
Agricultural supply shops like tractor supply
Auto motive parts shops
Big box hard ware stores like lowes, and home depo
Some smaller hardware stores like ace, sears, harbor freight.
Walmart, Canadian tire
Industrial supply shops like fastenal, enco, or McMaster Carr.
Metal shops that sell material direct to the public.
Most of these places will order in rod if they don't have it in stock.
Calling befor you go can save gas if they are out of stock or no longer carry the brazing rod.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2013-04-17, 4:35am
Dragonharper's Avatar
Dragonharper Dragonharper is offline
Now part of the Dark Side
 
Join Date: Jul 02, 2010
Location: North Central PA
Posts: 966
Default

A wire brush or fine emery cloth will clean up the rust. If you try to weld rusty metal it just gets sparkey and turns to slag. A small amount of surface rust is not a big issue. The copper on the filler rod will melt and become part of the weld, not a big deal. Be careful when using a reducing flame when welding an enclosed vessel, like a piece of pipe, the unburnt fuel can build up in the vessel and explode, at the least it will pop and startle you. One of the tricks to welding with a torch is to select the proper tip, you want to use the smallest tip that will do the job so you don't overheat and melt the adjoining metal.

Molten metal has a high surface tension, it wants to be a ball, so your pieces need to fit as tightly together as possible.


Now I want to go melt metal...
__________________
Roy
Hot glass does not crack.
Unless it is glowing and drippy, hot glass looks like cold glass.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2013-04-21, 5:38am
Roshini Roshini is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 09, 2012
Posts: 30
Default

So, I got myself some brass rods and flux and melted away. It was an entirely different experience to melt metal rather than glass. I remembered stuff I had learnt in school physics! Yes, it did seem to want to form a ball. I wanted to make a branch and since I don't have three hands ( ), I could not use a third rod to melt into the joint. So tried melting one rod into the other and the main rod just kept breaking in two each time! Though once I got a hang of it, I managed.
The flux though seemed to become a part of the brass, and looked like a glass membrane on parts of the joint. Didn't look too good and I wonder if it would compromise the strength as well.
Also, the flux did not work on the Mild steel (MS) rod and it did not melt down like the brass ... it just got red hot. Any suggestions?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2013-04-21, 8:51am
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Go buy a cheap welding torch!
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2013-04-21, 9:14am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

To braze steel first it has to be clean, no scale... Second you have to get steel to bright red heat so brass will flow onto steel... Third flux will actually float impurities up off steel and brass and only remain on surface. It can be cleaned off with light brushing(wire brush) and actually after a few days will absorb moisture from atmosphere and flake off (forms white flaky scale) ... If flux is in joint and compromising joint you are not applying enough heat to flow brass into joint to float out flux.... IF brass is forming little balls on surface you are not applying enough heat (remember steel at red heat) ....

Easiest way to braze is to setup pieces to be brazed on non flammable surface (fire brick) and clamp or use "fixtures" to hold pieces in place and heat with torch (hand held) and dab in brazing rod with hand not holding torch... Hand held torch works best because you can control heal better by focusing it on area you want to braze...

Another form is using "silver solder" it usually takes less heat and works pretty much like brazing ... You apply a flux, apply heat and when hot enough it flows and forms a bond and flux floats off.... I usually use silver solder process when working with copper materials.... One can actually buy silver solders in a paste form of ground metal (solder) and flux in a tube and apply it to joint and secure joint in fixture or on brick and just apply heat... Look up jewellery making for better information and description of process....

Its just another "art form" that takes practice (learned skill) ...

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal

Last edited by Dale M.; 2013-04-23 at 7:22am.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2013-04-22, 8:24pm
Roshini Roshini is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 09, 2012
Posts: 30
Default

i just got my glass setup 6 months back, so a welding torch will have to wait a bit . So if I understand right, the MS itself won't melt at the torch but I can melt brass to join two ms rods. A silver solder paste will be convenient though it seems like it would be pricey if used in larger pieces rather than jewellery.
Thanks for all the help! Mischief managed (I think!).
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2013-04-23, 10:07am
Dragonharper's Avatar
Dragonharper Dragonharper is offline
Now part of the Dark Side
 
Join Date: Jul 02, 2010
Location: North Central PA
Posts: 966
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
To braze steel first it has to be clean, no scale... Second you have to get steel to bright red heat so brass will flow onto steel... Third flux will actually float impurities up off steel and brass and only remain on surface. It can be cleaned off with light brushing(wire brush) and actually after a few days will absorb moisture from atmosphere and flake off (forms white flaky scale) ... If flux is in joint and compromising joint you are not applying enough heat to flow brass into joint to float out flux.... IF brass is forming little balls on surface you are not applying enough heat (remember steel at red heat) ....

Easiest way to braze is to setup pieces to be brazed on non flammable surface (fire brick) and clamp or use "fixtures" to hold pieces in place and heat with torch (hand held) and dab in brazing rod with hand not holding torch... Hand held torch works best because you can control heal better by focusing it on area you want to braze...

Another form is using "silver solder" it usually takes less heat and works pretty much like brazing ... You apply a flux, apply heat and when hot enough it flows and forms a bond and flux floats off.... I usually use silver solder process when working with copper materials.... One can actually buy silver solders in a paste form of ground metal (solder) and flux in a tube and apply it to joint and secure joint in fixture or on brick and just apply heat... Look up jewellery making for better information and description of process....

Its just another "art form" that takes practice (learned skill) ...

Dale
Your mild steel should be hot enough to melt the brazing rod (silver or brass) and suck it into the joint WITH OUT the flame being on the piece. Brazing is just like soldering only hotter. If one piece is more massive than the other apply more heat to the big one, "heat the meat". Like Dale I prefer brass for mild steel and silver solder for Stainless Steel and Copper. Silver solder will bond mild steel but brass is much cheaper. If you want to work exclusively with copper a product named SilFoss is the best.
__________________
Roy
Hot glass does not crack.
Unless it is glowing and drippy, hot glass looks like cold glass.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:22am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 18.209.209.246