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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2014-02-17, 9:27am
Floorkasp Floorkasp is offline
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Default Matching colors of Venetian trade beads

I have been trying to make replicas of some Venetian trade beads from the 1920's. Apart from the fact that it clearly showed me that my stringer control needs a lot of work, I am having trouble matching the colors.

Anybody know of a good dark yellow I could try? Also looking to match the dark red and the bright pink. I would think they would probably be Moretti colors, unless they have really changed their colors in the last 100 years or so
Also, having tried Moretti white, it seems I may need a color that is more chalky white, if that makes sense?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 2014-02-17, 9:50am
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Hi Floor, I love seeing these What a neat project!

Perhaps enamels would help, especially with the white? I think it would help the transparency issue that I see there, making the white more opaque. A good dark yellow might be dark yellow special. I really like Acid yellow (bright light yellow) as a strong yellow, but I'm not sure how dark you want it, or if you just meant strong.
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  #3  
Old 2014-02-17, 10:51am
Floorkasp Floorkasp is offline
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Thanks. No luck so far. Turns out I had the dark yellow special laying around. It is a lot closer, as it stays a dark yellow. Only problem is, it is not strong enough against the black. Tried some others, but they just go orange. The original yellow is probably a cadmium color, and I am not sure these are made anymore. Not too sure about the enamels, would like to stick to the original method of how they were made. They are clearly made with stringer. I did a whole bunch of ancient style beads last year. Then too, the colors were difficult to match.
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  #4  
Old 2014-02-17, 10:54am
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The pink looks like rubino over white. It also reminds me of Reich. Opal Raspberry, but you'd need to test it on the dark base color to see if it stays bright.
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  #5  
Old 2014-02-17, 11:04am
Floorkasp Floorkasp is offline
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Thanks Rachel, that makes sense, rubino over white. Will try that. There is definately a layer of white underneath the pink used.

Kristin, reading your response back: was it clear to you that the beads I showed are the Venetian beads, and not the ones I made? I am trying to get colors that match those in the picture.
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  #6  
Old 2014-02-17, 11:28am
Talonst Talonst is offline
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Proabaly need to mix your own color or create layered stringers where you start with a gather of one color and then encase with other colors and pull down to the stringer size you need
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  #7  
Old 2014-02-17, 11:55am
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I agree, you might need to mix your own. There was a Vetrofond yellow - lemon meringue, I think, that looks about the same to me.
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  #8  
Old 2014-02-17, 12:23pm
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I've been copying earlier beads for a while (for our medieval group) and I've found that CIM Peace white works very well for a dense white. For that milky white like the dots, try Effetre Anise white. It doesn't crawl at the edges and is ever-so-slightly translucent.

The best yellow I've used is the Effetre acid yellow. It looks awfully strong on its own, but contrasts well over a dark base and doesn't look so eye-burningly bright as it does on its own.

Top photo: the trails on the blue beads as well as the base on the center bead are all acid yellow. The small beads beside the center bead are Effetre dark yellow.

Bottom photo: the feathering on the coral bead (about 10 o'clock) and the spiral on the blue bead (about 5 o'clock), plus the little beads at 12 are all acid yellow. The pair of eye beads at 1 o'clock have dots of dark yellow between CIM Hades (closest to 12) and Effetre black. Note how the Effetre black crawled with the dark yellow.
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Old 2014-02-17, 2:20pm
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Hi Floor, good point. No, I thought those were ones you had made and etched.

For stringers, you might try pulling stringers that are a little thicker, as those don't tend to sink in as much. Also, over black, I find that using a base of white is good, also going over the stringer lines twice. The second time, it is on a base of similar glass, as opposed to the black. It might help. Interesting project!
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  #10  
Old 2014-02-17, 3:27pm
Floorkasp Floorkasp is offline
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Thanks! Some great advice and beads. Will have to order some of the jellow and do some more testing. Will keep you posted. Here is a pic of some previously made 'ancient' beads.
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  #11  
Old 2014-02-17, 6:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorkasp View Post


Thanks! Some great advice and beads. Will have to order some of the jellow and do some more testing. Will keep you posted. Here is a pic of some previously made 'ancient' beads.
Great beads!
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  #12  
Old 2016-02-19, 11:03am
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I wonder, why is the surface of those original venetian trade beads non glossy, dull and porous. They are not so old, if compared to some prehistoric beads with exactly the same looking surface. I always thought that this kind of surface is a result of glass ageing, caused by laying in soil for thousands of years. But what can be the cause of those beads from 1920's having that matt surface? Does the glass age and change so quickly, or could they be made already looking like this?
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  #13  
Old 2016-02-19, 1:17pm
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not all glass is shiny
it can have a matte finish

or it could have been etched
intentionally or by chance

Last edited by yellowbird; 2016-02-20 at 11:33am.
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  #14  
Old 2016-02-20, 6:05am
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Default Copper mandrels

The surface etching could also be from the nitric acid used to dissolve the copper mandrels, pretty sure it was the 1920's when this practice was first introduced in murano.
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  #15  
Old 2016-02-20, 8:45am
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Beads from Venice at that time could be ordered both shiny and matte. The beads going to Africa were often matte, while those for the European market were most often shiny. On some of the old tradesman sample cards are instructions on ordering matte or glossy. So it is intentional. I don't know if they used chemical etching or tumbling. I would not think that the nitric acid would affect the beads, since this technique was used for a great variety of beads.
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  #16  
Old 2016-02-20, 3:05pm
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A small child rolling a jar filled with sand and beads could well have been a method of taking the gloss off shiny beads as well as any of a number of "homemade caustics" created with pre industrial methods.

Home spun lye is not hard to make and should be a pretty good etchant.
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  #17  
Old 2016-02-23, 12:55am
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If you haven't solved the white issue...what if you roll your gather in white enamel before you pull the stringer? Should be more dense, right?
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  #18  
Old 2016-02-25, 7:49am
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the chemistry of the colors from Italy have changed , some changes may be due to reducing the more harmful opacifiers in the batch, The white in particular is not the same at all. On another old bead topic ,Tom and I have a theory that The Millefiori Trade beads from Venice, had all been crudely lapidaried or cold worked to open up the patterns from the murine. you can even see the scratches from this with the naked eye.most of these where not Lampworked in the same way as we work, they where made as quickly as possible

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  #19  
Old 2016-02-25, 8:00am
Floorkasp Floorkasp is offline
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Sage, that is interesting! I have indeed been searching for a good white.
I will have a closer look at some. I have seen quite a few pictures of the Venetians making the millefiori beads at the torch, and it seemed quite straight forward. I also understood that some of the coldwirking on the trade beads would be done in mostly West-Africa to alter them.
Any chance you would be at the Gathering this year? I'd love to 'compare notes'.
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