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  #1  
Old 2007-05-30, 9:49pm
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Default Squirrel Cage fans and CFM ??

Okay I am having a hard time trying to figure out how the CFMs work on squirrel cage fans. Can someone please tell me how to do a calculation for these fans. We have an Acklands-Grainger store nearby and I would like to walk in there with at least some basic knowledge.

Also another question....I know someone said SC fans use both "free air" and "max boost" to determin CFM for the fan, and I do sort of understand that concept. My question is if I have a squirrel cage fan ( direct drive blower fan ) is it advisable to have another fan helping to pull the air or is the SC fan enough provided the free air rate is high enough.

Also any reccomendations as to which fan I should buy ( cfm wise...i do soft and boro)


Does this make sense ??

Thanks
Laurie
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  #2  
Old 2007-05-30, 10:04pm
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The SC in the post I think you referred to stands for SunCourt a manufacturer of fans, not Squirrel Cage - I need to be more careful about my shorthand.

Squirrel Cage fans use the standard rating which would be equivalent to free air. They require no other fan to assist them. A Squirrel Cage is usually so robust that it requires no assistance.

Dale knows the pointer to the calculations... I keep forgetting where it is .

Just for data... what do you use for oxygen and what torch do you use?

Me
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Last edited by bhhco; 2007-05-31 at 5:04am. Reason: typo
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Old 2007-05-31, 5:27am
fishtrapper fishtrapper is offline
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I recently bought a new fan from Grainger, model 4TR53, 302 CFM, $144.90. It is wonderfully quiet! It's a low sone (sone is a measurement of noise level) blower. It is intended for ceiling suspention, so my hubby welded a bracket to hold it to the wall. The penetration through the wall had to be fairly high because of gerts and lights, so there is some sheet metal involved, then the lower part of the hood is plexiglas to allow light in. (I haven't yet removed the blue film from the plex.) The actual blower is the cube at the top, about one cubic foot in size.

Drew Frit's book on marble making has a great article on ventilation. The basic principles as I understand them are to have no more than one square foot of opening in your hood for each 100 CFM, and keep the hood no more than 24" from the bench top. The opening of my hood is just under 3 square feet, which nicely matches the 302 CFM.

Grainger offers this blower in a range of CFM ratings.
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Old 2007-05-31, 5:27am
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Morning Lori,
If you call grainger and have a ? they can get an engineer on the phone to help you.
..... Also if an item is listed as discontinued on the site, they may have them in that branch or at another location and are availble for purchase. I do not understand your Question..
What size vent hood? It will determine your fan size
Which torch ?
MarieAnn

Last edited by beadgirl; 2007-05-31 at 6:02am.
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  #5  
Old 2007-05-31, 5:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishtrapper View Post
....
See Photo above.

Besides being a superb example of architectural design and craftsmanship... it appears to embed all the key size, shape, and position elements of a very effective collector/exhauster system. Would like to see more.

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Last edited by bhhco; 2007-05-31 at 5:58am. Reason: typo
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Old 2007-05-31, 6:04am
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Fishtrapper,
Wow your husband does nice work! Ditto what bhhco said Yes, pleae show us more.
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Old 2007-05-31, 8:33am
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I have 2 torches a minor and a betta...both run on oxycons and NG.

Okay I did think you were reffering to a SC as squirrel cage...my mistake. So what ever the calculation for the CFM is the blower itself is enough?

My setup right now is I have 2 torches set up about 2 feet apart. about 20 inches above each of them is an undermount kitchen fan 180 cfm each. The ducting above each fan goes up about 4' then a 90 deg turn ( left torche set up bends to the right and the right set up bends to the left. Think and upside down Y ). They then connect to each other with a upside down T connector and go up 2 more feet where I have another fan thats 110 cfm ( household bathroom fan) then up 4 more feet and out thru the roof. The ducting I have right now is only 4".

When you turn one fan on they both come on. Why the installer did that I dont know. These fans are not cutting it but I wanted something up there. I keep getting told that because I work in a rather large garage 1400 sq ft and have 2 big garage doors and 3 windows for fresh air I dont need anything more than this set up.

I know I do, plus its noisy. I had a better setup at the other place we just moved from. I had a barley box setup with a 240 cfm fan.

So what I want to know is to do boro and soft what CFM squirrel cage fans do I need. Plus would it be a good idea to keep the upper fan thats installed already and use the 2 fans together. Figuring out the CFM on those SC fans I need help with.

Going to try and get a picture of my set up here....

Laurie

Last edited by Laurie L; 2007-05-31 at 9:40am.
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Old 2007-05-31, 9:32am
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Here is a shot of my set up...bad picture. I know. This will give you an idea of how my ducting works.

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Old 2007-05-31, 9:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beadgirl View Post
Morning Lori,
If you call grainger and have a ? they can get an engineer on the phone to help you.
..... Also if an item is listed as discontinued on the site, they may have them in that branch or at another location and are availble for purchase. I do not understand your Question..
What size vent hood? It will determine your fan size
Which torch ?
MarieAnn

Thanks MarieAnn.

I guess I am asking what size of a blower fan should I be getting. I want to mount the blower fan underneath/ inside my existing kitchen range hoods to hide the fan somewhat...dont know if it will hide the fans or not. LOL

basically I want to know how to figure out the CFM for each SC blower fan...I went to graingers site and there are so many fans to chosse from....so I need a little help figureing out how Grainger determines the CFM for each fan since they dont post it for dummies like me ( LOL ) and what CFM, in reality, I need.

laurie
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Old 2007-05-31, 9:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie L View Post
Here is a shot of my set up...bad picture. I know. This will give you an idea of how my ducting works.

Thank you Laurie, the photo and your excellent description makes it very clear to understand. Gvie me a little while to do some math.

Me
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Old 2007-05-31, 9:58am
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If I recognize the vent hoods correctly, those are 2-speed, 180 CFM hoods, correct? And you still have the original fans installed? Does the 110 CFM bath fan at the top have a separate on switch?

And when you turn on one vent hood, both come on?

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Old 2007-05-31, 10:27am
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Yes both kitchen fans have a CFM of 180 and the bathroom fan is 110 or 120. They both come on at the same time. DH had the electrician wire them so both kitchen fans come on and the upper bath fan. The original kitchen fans are still installed.

The only thing I hate about these kitchen fans is that I get blowback of air. Unless I duct tape off certain holes and other areas around the filtre, I get air blowing back at me.

Last edited by Laurie L; 2007-05-31 at 4:36pm.
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Old 2007-05-31, 10:47am
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Thank you. Yes I understand about the blowback... we found the same during testing these type hoods. There are numerous 'perforations' inside the box area which encases the hood's fan. The fan must be removed and all the perforations foil taped to prevent it, then reinstall the fan. It's not so much a backflow situation as a fan box overpressure caused by the fan... and it leaks through the perforations... including the one which holds a filter in place.

Still calculating...

Me
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Last edited by bhhco; 2007-05-31 at 10:49am. Reason: typos
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  #14  
Old 2007-05-31, 11:08am
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Yeah I duct taped off all the holes I could see and duct tape sealed around the filtre but the heat from the torch keeps heating the duct tape and allowing it to peel off...need to get some foil tape. My husband has some around here, just need to find it, but I dont plan on keeping the kitchen fans - just the body of the fan and installing a squirrel cage in each. If I can....and if I cant thats allright too. I dont mind mounting it under the upper cabs.

Last edited by Laurie L; 2007-05-31 at 11:31am.
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Old 2007-05-31, 12:48pm
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Someone just told me that I should not be mounting the S Cages under my cabinet uppers but up higher, maybe even in the rooftop ??? said about a 2000 CFM fan ( 1 fan )should work for both torch stations, does this sound right ??
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Old 2007-05-31, 1:56pm
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www.grainger.com
7F740
Direct Drive Blower, Wheel Diameter 10 5/8 Inches, Motor Power Rating 1/2 HP, Number of Speeds 4, Type PSC, Voltage Rating 115 Volts DAYTON
7F740 1 Today $241.00 3057



7D752
Radial Blade Blower, Motor Power Rating 7 1/2 HP, Phase Three, Voltage Rating 208/230/460 Volts, Wheel Diameter 13 1/2 Inches DAYTON
7D752 1 Today $736.50 3067
Hope this helps.. anybody else have a source or idea ?
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Old 2007-05-31, 1:59pm
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Go to HVARC and do a search for 2000 CFM Blowers
Have no idea what size you need though without sizes and so many 90 degree turns( just going by your post)
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Old 2007-05-31, 2:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie L View Post
...I dont plan on keeping the kitchen fans - just the body of the fan and installing a squirrel cage in each. If I can....and if I cant thats allright too. I dont mind mounting it under the upper cabs.
Almost finished... last question...what CFM exhaust rate do you want it to be? There are lots of different thoughts on what is 'needed'... what do you think... you mentioned your barley box was 240 CFM... what's your preference for exhaust CFM?

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Old 2007-05-31, 2:12pm
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Well thats just it. I dont know what the CFM out put should be. I know my barley box was on the low side.

I know DaleM ( le member) usually has calculations he uses to figure out what is needed, but I havent a clue what those calculations should be.

I was thinking at a minimum of 600 CFM for each torch station...If I am using only 1 blower fan then I would need at least 1200 CFM. I dont know if thats enough or over kill.
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Old 2007-05-31, 2:13pm
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Stepping out to go to the bank and pick up my daughter from school.
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Old 2007-05-31, 2:14pm
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Not a problem... I know Dale's math.

Me
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:01pm
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Not a problem... I know Dale's math.

Me



I divide a flamework ventilation system into three components: collector, exhauster, and make-up air.

Your collector(s) appear to be properly located and positioned - just be certain the leading edge of the hood extends at least mid-way over the body of the torch.

Your make-up air is assumed sufficient based on the garage location of the studio.

That leaves the exhauster. The exhauster subsystem contains fan and duct components. Some of the components in your system are embedded in the collectors, and some are not.

There are some rather severe resistance points in the exhauster subsystem. Some are known, and some are assumed.

Referencing the annotated photo...

1. There are three common vertical discharge openings made for standard range vent hoods (holes in the top of the hood): 5" round, 7" round , and rectangular. A rectangular discharge connected to a round duct creates the greatest resistance of all three, followed by a 7" round to a 4" duct, followed by a 5" round to a 4" duct. I assumed the most common, which is a 7" round vertical discharge. The transition from 7" round to 4" round is the first significant resistance in the system.

2. The duct being used is 4" round bendable aluminum metal duct, which is commonly referred to as flex-duct (it is not truely flex-duct per industry definition, but it is flexible, thus common parlance often refers to it as such). The most resistance is offered from 3" duct diameter, with each increased diameter being less resistance. The largest diameter nominally used in a ventilation system is 12"; and the smallest is 6" diameter. Nominally, range vent hoods are most frequently installed with 8" duct. There is very significant resistance due to the 4" duct diameter. Additionally, the bendable duct interior surface creates a significant resistance at the higher range velocities the fans are attempting to move the air; thus further increased resistance.

3. The 90 degree elbow radius/diameter ratio is approximately 0.5 or less, which is the most resistive turn radius. A R/D ratio of 1.5 or better lessens resistance, and improves flow. Simply stated... this bend is too tight, creating the third significant resistance.

4. Air, like water, has very great difficultly making a direct 90 degree turn, and a major resistance is located at this point. Additionally, this portion of the duct system flows two 4" branch ducts into a single 4" primary exhaust duct. This is the fourth, and most significant resistance in the entire system.

5. This is a 4" duct, radial fan - usually used as a duct air booster. It can move air against greater resistance than an axial duct booster fan, but less than a centrifigal (squirel cage) blower fan. If it were the only fan in the system, given the total system resistance the actual exhaust flow would be 0 CFM. It's location appears to be intended to assist in the movement of air... but due the resistance/restriction noted in 4 above, it has little if any added effect.

6. n/a.

Conclusion: The primary problem is the current duct system design. The total system resistance is massive, and the actual current exhaust CFM is very likely less than 60 CFM, at best. It may seem odd, but adding large fans will increase the velocity pressure and it will be very difficult to ever achieve the desired exhaust higher CFM rates. IMO, it cannot be done with the current duct system, regardless of the size of fan(s) installed. If a nominal 375 CFM per hood were achieved,it would result in a duct air velocity of over 100 MPH, and the current ductwork would likely collapse.

Suggested Solution: The better solution is to simply de-couple the two hoods and make them two separate and independent systems, each with at least 6" diameter duct (smooth galvanized preferred), and with ductwork running straight up (no bends) and out the roof. This will result in the lowest resistance (Static pressure), and a very manageable fan CFM requirement. If that is done, and if the desire is for 'standard exhaust CFM' (Dales way ), then here's the numbers:

Hood Size: 30" x 18"
Hood Open Area: 3.75 Sqaure Foot
Standard Exhaust Requirement at 100CFM/SF: 370 CFM
System Static Pressure (6" Smooth, No Bends, 12' Run): 0.12"
System Velocity Pressure (1900 FPM): 0.23"
Total System Pressure: 0.35"
Note: If you move up to 8" duct, the Total System Pressure is: 0.10"

Guidance: You would select, for 6" ductwork, a fan which provides at least 375 CFM at 0.35 SP; or for 8" ductwork, a fan which provides at least 375 CFM at 0.10 SP.

Hope this helps... probably not the answer you were hoping for ... others may have a different answer - they may even have a better answer... this is the best one I could come up with... and I ran several different scenarios on the software.

Me
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Last edited by bhhco; 2007-05-31 at 4:21pm. Reason: fixed typos
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:11pm
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Thanks so much bhhco....I will show this to my husband and electrician. Appreciate your help.

Last edited by Laurie L; 2007-05-31 at 4:35pm.
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:23pm
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Ok... First thoughts....

The 4 inch duct is to small. And its flex, which is not good, to much static pressure.

Next you can not feed two 180 cfm fans into a single 110 cfm fan above the "tee"...

My first solution would be to replace the 4 inch ducts with 6 or 7 inch smooth wall duct and go directly out side with EACH duct. Essentially you are making it two separate vent systems. Keeping original fans in hood.

IF that does not work sufficiently (180 cfm is pretty poor) then I would remove the 180 cfm fans from hoods and replace them with something about 350-500 cfm range. you could place fans above cabinet line. Still keeping it two separate systems. Trying to "tee" it together and use a booster fan kind of defeats the purpose... It is probably more of a hindrance than a help...

If you were to try and use a booster fan, it has to have the capability to pass the combined out put of the two 180 cfm fans so booster needs to be in range of handling about 360 cfm. This gets two complicated.

IS simpler to keep system as two separate systems....

Going have to think on this some more....

Dale
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:25pm
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Well, tell him I'm apologize for using 'resistance' so cavalerly... I tried to avoid the technicals as much as possible. Hope he gets a laugh at my misuse of an electrical term

Me

p.s. New song... I type faster than Dale types... I type faster than Dale!, I type faster cause...
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:27pm
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Thanks to you too Dale.

Had someone tell me that my ducting from the range hoods should be 8" up to the T then have 12" straight up from that with a 2000CFM squirrel cage fan mounted in the ceiling and duct out the roof.

Would it work if I had bigger/ smooth ducting and a much larger fan mounted up high like that ?
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Old 2007-05-31, 4:28pm
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Quote:
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Well, tell him I'm apologize for using 'resistance' so cavalerly... I tried to avoid the technical terms as much as possible. Hope he gets a laugh at my misuse of resistance

Me
Not a problem.....LOL.
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Old 2007-05-31, 5:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie L View Post
Thanks to you too Dale.

Had someone tell me that my ducting from the range hoods should be 8" up to the T then have 12" straight up from that with a 2000CFM squirrel cage fan mounted in the ceiling and duct out the roof.

Would it work if I had bigger/ smooth ducting and a much larger fan mounted up high like that ?
8" duct to a 12" duct sounds good, it certainly has much much less static pressure. The branch to main transiton should be a air handler Y and not a T.

I say sounds good because... the next part of the suggestion leads to a single fan for two separate hoods. Here's why I did not select that scenario.

Air follows the path of least resistance (ooops, used that electrical word again), you would need to install adjustable dampers and make air flow measurements to determine if the air drawn by each hood was 'balanced' and not prejudiced by the ductwork, even though the ductwork may look symetrically identical. For example, given an exhaust rate of 700 CFM (350 CFM per hood), one hood might be moving 600 CFM and the other 100 CFM. Only way to ensure against that is by mechanical balancing and measurement. Seemed too complex so I discard it... but it is done industrially all the time and certainly works.

A note about CFM. When someone looks at a system and says, hmmmm, two at 350 CFM... use a 2000 CFM squirrel cage... they may be quite right. I like to be a little more precise than that. BUT, you know what? I'm retentive - and the whole world's a better place because there aren't a lot of folks like me and better because there are folks like that.

There is (or was... he's gone now) a a very well know HVAC architect who worked on monstrously large commercial buildings and he could tell you the ventilation requirement for a structure in about 5 minutes. He had over his life experience found some basic fundamental commercial ventilation rules of "this x that = the answer!", which he could apply using just a couple of dimensions, a do in his head. I think that's the case with some flamework ventilation answers... I certainly would not argue that if the duct suggested was used, and a 2000 CFM centrifigal fan was used (considering the standard horse power of those big beasts) that it couldn't do the job. I just tend to do finer analysis - I'm not certain we have this flamework ventilation thing down perfectly pat yet -- or maybe I don't.

In the end, there's a lot of ways to skin a squirrel cage fan.

Me
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Old 2007-05-31, 7:04pm
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Again thanks so much for everyones responses. I am going to have to ask someone to come take a look at the area I am working in ( not working in it right now ) and I will show them this thread with all of its info. I know you both put in a great amount of time for me and I truly appreaciate that !

Laurie
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