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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2008-04-21, 2:22pm
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
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Try that and see - the fan doesn't vibrate so it should be ok but I am no contractor!
You are very welcome! I can't have your fan falling down in the middle of your torching session after recommending it now, can I?
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Hayley
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2008-04-21, 8:16pm
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Calendar Girl
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OK, so now what did you use to connect the fan to the ductwork? Hard to see from your picture.
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2008-04-21, 9:24pm
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da General
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The fan fits right inside the 10" ducting and I just taped it with foil tape.
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Hayley
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2008-04-22, 10:41am
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Does my glass look 2 big?
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2006
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 613
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Update!
Thank you all that helped with this setup. Hayley I did get the fan from where you suggested, they were very nice and even though they did not give me 10% off, they did give me 6% off.
I got the 800 CFM, which was on sale for the same price as any of the lower CFM fans, so why not!
It is a tad loud, but since I just switched from a HH to a Mega Minor, I feel in heaven, noise wise!
Next step....... make up air coming from under my table... gotta give the DH a couple of weeks to rest this one though ... lol
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2008-04-22, 10:48am
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da General
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Woohoo, that looks awesome! I love the touch of orange!
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Hayley
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2008-04-22, 11:15am
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Does my glass look 2 big?
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2006
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 613
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That was my DH's touch. I am a big time Tigger fan, so he paints some of my rough wood carpenter stuff "Bouncy Bounce" color. LOL.
My stained glass cabinet is also painted Bouncy Bounce.
Thanks! I feel so much better with the system now!
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2008-04-22, 1:28pm
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Martyrs don't bitch.
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
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I'm a waiting on mine, I ordered the smaller 565 one I talked about.
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If I can't eat it, or live in it, I'm not buying it!
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2008-05-04, 9:34pm
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i need help
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Join Date: Oct 17, 2007
Location: slc
Posts: 55
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why are you guys doing make up air from underneath? Wouldn't you rather it come from behind you?
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2008-05-04, 9:42pm
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
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If you have your make up air pipe in from underneath your table, you keep the temperature of your room more constant. It's really helpful for those who live in areas where it gets too hot or too cold.
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Hayley
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2008-05-05, 3:27am
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Calendar Girl
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Here is a link to Dale's wonderful ventilation diagrams. One with make-up air from a window behind you and one where it comes from under your bench. Thanks, Dale!
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...opic.php?t=150
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2008-05-09, 7:22am
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Glass Graffiti
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Join Date: Oct 06, 2006
Posts: 94
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I just ordered the 800 CFM Squirrel cage fan from mdhydro with the adjustable control for my new shop! I mentioned Hayleys name...lets see if I get the discount!
I have one question though....how loud are we talking for the squirrel cage fans? I am using a kitchen hood right now that is louder than @#$%. I don't really mind, I just crank up the music or TV but my new shop is going to be in the basement of our house. I tend to torch late sometimes and I'm worried that the squirrel fan will keep BF awake. Its on the other side of the house from his bedroom and will be mounted at the seal plate venting outside.
So (anyone with the squirrel cage fan) do you think it would keep you awake if it was in the basement and about 30-40 feet away?
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Whitney Lassini
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2008-05-12, 10:35pm
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Senior Member
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Location: Out West
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I have a question regarding the CAN or Vortex fans. I'm setting up my ventilation and love the idea of this type of fan but am concerned about them overheating. I have a Cheetah and not a lot of room for duct work so placing the fan further down isn't an option for me. Anyone know if this type of fan is an option, or should I go for the squirrel cage instead? Love the idea of a quieter fan but don't want issues later!
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2009-03-20, 2:07pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley
Also - tell mdhydro that you are referred by hayley from lampworketc.com and ask if they would give you a 10% discount (that's what they said they would do when I got my fan from them - that my referrals from the forum will get 10%!)
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Just in case anyone does a search like I did and finds this, I wanted to let you guys know that mdhydro just told me that they do not offer this discount anymore.
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2009-03-20, 2:54pm
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
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Cassie - since that was offered when I purchased my fan from mdhydro over a year ago, I wouldn't expect them to honor the discount anymore.
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Hayley
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2009-03-20, 2:57pm
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I figured that... I just thought I'd post it since there was mention of there being no expiration date. Just so someone else didn't come along, see that and assume that it would still be offered.
I was really hoping that they would... especially with the state of the economy. Oh well!
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2009-03-20, 4:11pm
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da General
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Location: San Francisco
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I completely understand, Cassie. Thank you for posting. The referral discount was just a handwritten note on my packing slip. The fact the they honored that for quite a few months was pretty amazing.
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Hayley
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2009-03-31, 8:08am
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Glass Wrangler
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Join Date: Apr 03, 2006
Location: Clinton IA
Posts: 140
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Just ordered a 8" Vortex from
https://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/
They were $189, which would be close or below the discount that's no longer offered....
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Char Behrens
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2009-05-18, 1:13pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 18, 2009
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I've been looking around at some different sites that offer these types of fans. I found that hidhut.com offers centrifugal fan at 250 CFM. Is this powerful enough? You can see their selection at: http://www.hidhut.com/catalog/ventilation-c-29.html. Let me know if any one has experience with these types of fans.
Thanks so much for the feedback.
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2009-05-18, 1:53pm
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Salt Box Beads
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Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Heading to Paradise
Posts: 4,161
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Jeff, it is not so much about the fan being powerful enough as it is about the fan fitting your work area. The opening to the Barley Box or whatever you have designed.
It is done mathmatically with an adopted formula. Art Glass Answers "forum" can answer all of your questions with lots of diagrams and pictures and help.
You need to design your work station first, decide on how large it will be, decide on how large the opening will be around the torch and then you have to buy a fan that you have mathmatically figured out for correct CFM.
Well, you don't HAVE to do all of this but it is what works and is recommended and generally accepted as the best way to go.
Lorraine
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2009-05-18, 2:48pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffw
I've been looking around at some different sites that offer these types of fans. I found that hidhut.com offers centrifugal fan at 250 CFM. Is this powerful enough? You can see their selection at: http://www.hidhut.com/catalog/ventilation-c-29.html. Let me know if any one has experience with these types of fans.
Thanks so much for the feedback.
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If the face opening of your hood or barley box is 12 x 24 inches its fine.......
Rule of thumb is 125cfm for every square foot of "face opening" of hood...
Dale
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2009-05-19, 8:01am
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MacGalver
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Join Date: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 9,927
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Dale, does this rule also apply if you are using one of the small positionable cone shaped sytems? If the opening is roughly 1 ft square, is a 125 cfm fan enough?
Jo
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Jo
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2009-05-19, 10:38am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrlartist
Dale, does this rule also apply if you are using one of the small positionable cone shaped sytems? If the opening is roughly 1 ft square, is a 125 cfm fan enough?
Jo
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You want to know something, I JUST DON'T KNOW. I have been searching for anybody that has PUBLISHED any test results and specifications on "funnel/cone" systems and I don't fine any proof that any set parameters are defined for these systems. I personally want to build one for my new studio and I keep going back (mentally) to use the 350 CFM fan that I have. But have not put system together for testing....
Sorry, I know that is answer did not want to hear....
Dale
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2009-05-19, 12:30pm
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MacGalver
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Dale I really appreciate your admitting that you don't know the answer. I've been puzzling over this one for a while, and I'm kind of relieved to hear that the answer isn't extremely obvious! I had also guessed that you'd probably need a higher rated fan for the cone shaped vent.
With my very inexact comprehension of ventilation systems, I would guess that there must be a "base level" of air movement that is required and that the rough formula for the vent hood opening x 125cfm assumes that your vent hood opening is going to be somewhat similar in size to your work area. I'd also guess that with a smaller opening (cone) you would actually need greater cfm, because of the high level of drag within the flexible vent pipe and the fact that the fumes being gathered are not already passively contained below a vent hood. Does my thinking sound logical to you?
Jo
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2009-05-20, 5:59am
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Senior Member
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From Mike:
Quote:
Cone type "hoods" (and I really don't like calling them that because they definately are NOT hoods by any stretch of the imagination) are not ideal for lampworking. They have certain uses, such as welding and other similiar uses where the work does not move. However, placing glass into the torch flame tends to displace the flame plume by as much as 30 degrees, depending on the size of the piece being worked. Cones are not designed to capture off-axis plumes and they will therefore contaminate the surrounding air.
What little I've done with them indicates that you are correct, Jo, cones DO require much higher airflows, and I've achieved some dubious success at 375-400 CFM per square foot. I'm not prepared to say that this is ideal however, as I don't support or recommend the use of cones for lampworking. Properly installed hoods or enclosures are (in my opinion) the only safe way to ventilate torch workstations.
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Ed Peterson
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2009-05-20, 9:28am
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Consider Fantech Fans, too, and fan design/performance
I haven't seen folks mention Fantech in-line fans as an option. I've looked at the specs for Fantech vs Vortech fans, and while the latter is a very good product that folks on this forum seem to like, the Fantech fans seem to offer a little higher cfm for an equivalent model and slightly better cfm retention over static pressure (from bends, ducting etc). Don't know how the costs compare, however. I'm also not familiar with Can Fans - folks seemed to have had problems with them several years ago, but have posted that they have apparently been re-designed and seem to be more reliable now.
Dale is absolutely correct in encouraging everyone to look for how the fan is rated for various static pressures, not just the 'free air' or zero static pressure performance. The design of the fan - and its motor - are critical to how well a fan will hold up under static pressure 'load'. Fans that are intended to independently drive air through ducting (like Vortech, Can Fan, Fantech and many squirrel cage fans) do very well. Fans that aren't (like cheap kitchen vent hoods, duct boosters, window fans, certain kinds of attic fans) can die surprisingly quickly.
How do I know? Having had moments of feeling cheap and somewhat stubborn, of course I had to go find out....
As a temporary set-up, I once built a small barley box enclosure around a cheap kitchen vent hood rated at about 250 cfm. I only needed to run about 2 to 2.5 feet of ducting and one bend, so I attached a piece of 7" diameter flex ducting to it. I figured, how bad can this be? Even with that short a run, the fan couldn't handle the static pressure and would barely even turn on. Any wind or breeze from outside the vent seemed to overpower the fan almost completely, so I wasn't sure the fan was even exhausting. After looking at the cheap, puny 3" plastic fan blades and puny motor, I decided I shouldn't have been surprised. My next attempt was to try to use some attic ventilation fans left over from a building project. Free is good, right? This fan had large, 16" blades, a free air rating of 1060 cfm and something like 750 cfm into 0.1" or 0.2" of static pressure. With such a fast loss of cfm with static pressure (I think because of the wide, flat blade design and probably the motor), I knew I would have to be careful not to load it down. This time, my barley box was bigger, but 750 cfm would have been enough. I now only had 1.5 feet of ducting run and one bend to negotiate. My challenge was to couple the square footprint of the fan's 16" opening to the 7" duct in my wall. I was a bit constrained by the configuration of the area I was trying to set up in, so I built a square duct with a slight diagonal to it to try to angle the fan's output to the 7" duct in the wall. Worked far better than the kitchen fan, but I didn't seem to be getting the 750 cfm I was hoping for. In this case, interestingly, I didn't have enough room to gradually reduce the 16" square footprint to a 7" round duct, so I think I ended up with a fair amount of turbulence that loaded the fan. If I had had more space or a different physical area to work with, this fan probably would have worked just fine. I know that others on this forum have used them more successfully than I was able to.
Having learned my lesson (for my working space), I bought an in-line fan (I chose a Fantech FKD 10 XL) that is far easier for me to connect efficiently in the space available and that performs far better under static pressure than even the attic fan. Given my own 'experiments', I personally won't buy a fan without cfm vs static pressure ratings because of how situational an installation can be.
The fan I bought is big, which I need, but corrospondingly noisy. To cut the noise, I have it mounted upright on the top of my barley box enclosure. I built a frame around the fan and lined the space between the frame and fan with about 4" of foam. That helped considerably, both to keep the fan from vibrating and to cut the noise. I'm hoping that the in-line design of the fan won't result in overheating with the foam surround, but if it does, it's easy to take out the foam and just wear earplugs to protect my ears.
I've elected to go the barley box route rather than the 'cone' style because, like Dale amd Mike, I also haven't found any information on how to design these for equivalent safety nor how to install them correctly. Unless the flame is completely underneath the cone, I'm hard pressed to see how these systems can fully capture the fumes, at least not in the ways I've seen folks use them. Puts me in mind of down-draft stoves - I've never met anyone who has one that has been particularly happy with them and they typically get poor reviews. And then there is the problem of the incredibly high static pressure from flexible ducting typically used with these, which would require very high cfm fans to overcome.
A better idea might be a mini vent hood positioned directly over the flame, say, 14" above the primary working area of the flame (enough to allow a typical rod to clear) and, say, 10" or 12" in diameter (or square). The ducting/fan for this could be taken down under the work surface right behind the torch as easily as it could be suspended from above. Add sides and it becomes a mini barley box. In either case, it's in known territory on how to design appropriately. Someone on WC posted something half-way between the cone-style configuration and this, although it didn't completely cover the flame.
For those of you with the 'cone' style vent arrangement, if you have enough adjustment to position the cone directly above and over the flame and if you are interested in trying this, it would be great to hear from you regarding whether you find this improves your ventillation. Perhaps someone can propose a good way to test/compare the two configurations?
Linda
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