Tutorial copyright limitations

[miahawk]

it's an attempt to interpret existing laws in light of how they're actually applied as well as offer some common-sense solutions to the problems of digital media. perhaps their interpretation is radical, but they aren't the only ones saying it.

[lunamoonshadow]

I suspect, given time for the law to sort through all of the intricacies of *all* types of digital media, ANYTHING "digital" will be ONE SALE = ONLY SALE.
If it downloads, it's a one-time sale--not for resale.
Movie, Music, Tutorial, program, streaming video, game, photo, artwork, whatever, they're really all the same--not a "transferable" type of product, but a "one purchase, one user" type of media.

[ditfd]

What a great thread.

I've been reluctant to buy any tutorials since I'm on dial-up, and I'm afraid it won't download. Would much prefer a CD or book at this point.

I do weigh in on the side of one download, one user, non-transferrable, etc. regarding the PDF tuts.

However, I'm tired of buying the same thing everytime the format changes, and I think these copyright laws and eula's are rather lopsided. For example, if I have bought an LP or cassette tape, why can't I turn it in for free to get a CD or group of MP3's perhaps? I've already bought it. Just need it in a more modern format. Same deal on DVD's -- already bought how many VCR tapes? Why can't I turn it in for credit toward a DVD?

Personally, it slows down what I buy altogether -- have one yoga DVD, but no others. Will DVD or Blueray win?

Don't buy very many CD's these days either. Can't afford an IPOD or MP3 player and not sure I want one, blah, blah, blah.

Can't do big downloads, so don't buy anything like that over the Internet.

Would love a kindle, but then I'd probably want to purchase not only new books, but repurchase books I already own so I could put them on the kindle. Doesn't seem realistic for me at this point.

Best,
Patti

[miahawk]

Luna, we're on the same page. I also think we'll see "one sale = only sale" for digital files as courtrooms address these issues.

[laserglass]

in theory, you can make money selling your intelectual content digitally or the internet, these guys did

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip...internet+money

[jack]

I understand that some people may not be happy with this thread, but I did receive alot of positive support in private messages and much support was posted in the thread. The overall feedback was positive for the re-selling or gifting of tutorials. Thank you all for your valuable contributions.

[SteveWright]

<sarcasm>
If you want to learn several lampwork techniques, I suggest you enroll in one of Loren Stump's classes. He charges $750 for a 5 day class. Expenses should amount to around an additional $500. It is a great class and it changed my life.

I can't understand why you would want to buy an $18 tutorial when you could learn 50 techniques for only $1250.

Wait a minute, you might be like me and can't afford springing for the big class.

Go ahead and sell those tutorials you bought. When the author of those tutorials gets 300 requests for support for the 25 tutorials they sold, I'm sure they will be encouraged to create more. Seeing your tutorial resell for $2 on eBay is a great motivator.

There are a lot of great tutorials out there, I've purchased several and have saved a ton of money. A year from now, if you can no longer buy tutorials online, give Loren a call.
</sarcasm>

Steve

[swamper]

Originally Posted by SteveWright

<sarcasm>
If you want to learn several lampwork techniques, I suggest you enroll in one of Loren Stump's classes. He charges $750 for a 5 day class. Expenses should amount to around an additional $500. It is a great class and it changed my life.

I can't understand why you would want to buy an $18 tutorial when you could learn 50 techniques for only $1250.

Wait a minute, you might be like me and can't afford springing for the big class.

Go ahead and sell those tutorials you bought. When the author of those tutorials gets 300 requests for support for the 25 tutorials they sold, I'm sure they will be encouraged to create more. Seeing your tutorial resell for $2 on eBay is a great motivator.

There are a lot of great tutorials out there, I've purchased several and have saved a ton of money. A year from now, if you can no longer buy tutorials online, give Loren a call.
</sarcasm>

Steve

Bravo, where's that clapping smilie when I need it?

[Rudy]

As an expression of support for the tutorial writers out there, I'm off to find another "full-price" tutorial that I need! : - )

I suggest everybody do the same!!!!

[miahawk]

exactly Steve! well done.

if I have free info to give away, it'll be digital. if I'm ever good enough to charge people for what I know, it'll be in book form. I've purchased a number of full price books. I have as yet to buy any digital tuts, but I have my eye on a couple and they're all cheaper than the books I've purchased. I figure that because they're intangible and I don't have a right to resell them, it'll work out just fine.

[likes to make glass stuff]

Wow, so much for keeping this conversation respectful.

Steve-
I don't think anyone would suggest that the law would require support on resold tutorials.

Miahawk- How can you copyright something that's intangible? If a tutorial is intangible, it cannot be copyrighted. If it can be copyrighted, it must be tangible.

I'd really, really like for those who disagree with the resale of tutorials to read another perspective on technological/digital rights and things. Check out http://craphound.com/. Find his collection of essays, Content. It's downloadable off his site, for free.

I really like his point of view on DRM/ copy protection...it's an interesting read, needless to say.

[SteveWright]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

Steve-
I don't think anyone would suggest that the law would require support on resold tutorials.

That was a bit off of my point. I'm not involved in the legal aspect of this thread.


Steve

[upinflames]

Lots of very interesting ideas about this topic here, but for me personally, if I want to learn a technique that someone has spent a lot of time and energy developing, I'll go to them and purchase the tutorial directly from them for the price they set.

I have purchased 10 or 12 that way and will continue to do it that way.

For me, it's a matter of respecting the artist enough to support their work, I don't really care what the law says about it.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

Wow, so much for keeping this conversation respectful.

Steve-
I don't think anyone would suggest that the law would require support on resold tutorials.

Miahawk- How can you copyright something that's intangible? If a tutorial is intangible, it cannot be copyrighted. If it can be copyrighted, it must be tangible.

"Tangible" like the written word? You seem to be saying that words and images written in an electronic format are not copyrightable, but actual copyright law says otherwise. Written material and images do not have to exist in hardcopy in order to be copywritten... they are legally copyrighted to you the moment you create them.

[Damselfly]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

Wow, so much for keeping this conversation respectful.

I agree. It was nice that it stayed on topic too, until now.


No one was saying it was legal, ethical, or appropriate for someone to resell a bunch of copies of a single tutorial on ebay (other than the author, of course). That's ridiculous.

[SteveWright]

Originally Posted by upinflames

Lots of very interesting ideas about this topic here, but for me personally, if I want to learn a technique that someone has spent a lot of time and energy developing, I'll go to them and purchase the tutorial directly from them for the price they set.

I have purchased 10 or 12 that way and will continue to do it that way.

For me, it's a matter of respecting the artist enough to support their work, I don't really care what the law says about it.

Well said.

Say I work 80 hours to put together a tutorial(a simple one). I sell it for $15 and then notice that it has since been resold 30 times for $5, Do I:

a) Get to work on my second tutorial, or;
b) Change the link on my page to sign up for private classes?

Also Google: Aesop fable goose

Steve

[likes to make glass stuff]

Originally Posted by Kalera

"Tangible" like the written word? You seem to be saying that words and images written in an electronic format are not copyrightable, but actual copyright law says otherwise. Written material and images do not have to exist in hardcopy in order to be copywritten... they are legally copyrighted to you the moment you create them.

Right, Kalera, they are tangible. I've read enough to see that electronic files are considered tangible-they have to be in order to be able to be copyrighted, which they most certainly can be.

An argument here has been that tutorials are intangible, therefore they cannot be resold. If they are intangible, they can't be copyrighted...and the whole point is moot.

[likes to make glass stuff]

Originally Posted by SteveWright

Well said.

Say I work 80 hours to put together a tutorial(a simple one). I sell it for $15 and then notice that it has since been resold 30 times for $5, Do I:

a) Get to work on my second tutorial, or;
b) Change the link on my page to sign up for private classes?

Also Google: Aesop fable goose

Steve

You can do whatever you want to.

You might also try and track and see how many purchasers of the used tutorial then line up to buy the next one, new. Or recognize that those used sales would probably never have converted into full priced new sales.

I buy used books. I buy used books from authors I wouldn't have purchased the same book new from, sometimes. Then I like the book. Then I buy all the other books by that author.

Patricia Briggs comes to mind.

I got the first Mercedes Thompson book used. I rarely buy skinny books new if I don't know the author since I can read them in a few hours and it frustrates me to spend that much money on a brand new book and have it gone so quickly. I saved something like $3 on the first book. I now own one used book by her and 6 purchased new books by her (including the newest one, in hardback).

If she'd somehow banned her books being resold, that would be 6 less sales for her.

(of course, we don't know of any tutorial author who says they will ban used sales, though if they say it up front in a EULA, it looks like they have the right to do so)

[Damselfly]

Originally Posted by SteveWright

I sell it for $15 and then notice that it has since been resold 30 times for $5

If that was the case, then I'd wonder why 30 people didn't feel my tutorial was worth keeping and wanted to dump it and lose $10.

[SteveWright]

Originally Posted by Damselfly

If that was the case, then I'd wonder why 30 people didn't feel my tutorial was worth keeping and wanted to dump it and lose $10.

I don't sell online tutorials and likely never will. I was going to do one on the use of the Stump Sucker, but that will be the DVD after the one in production and the one in planning.


Steve

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by Damselfly

If that was the case, then I'd wonder why 30 people didn't feel my tutorial was worth keeping and wanted to dump it and lose $10.

Well, you have to figure that once you've mastered the techniques in the tut, you've gotten your money's worth from it and don't really need to keep it to re-read. So some people might then decide to make a few extra dollars by reselling it. They've already learned what they paid to learn, so they're not losing $10. They're not losing anything. But the author would be.

[likes to make glass stuff]

Originally Posted by Kalera

Well, you have to figure that once you've mastered the techniques in the tut, you've gotten your money's worth from it and don't really need to keep it to re-read. So some people might then decide to make a few extra dollars by reselling it. They've already learned what they paid to learn, so they're not losing $10. They're not losing anything. But the author would be.

The author would only be losing anything if those people would have actually purchased the full priced tutorial-which is doubtful, or they already would have.

[Rudy]

I agree. I think most people recognize that tutorial authors are really just trying to make a living, or at least supplement their income, and would therefore be inclined to purchase tutorials directly from the authors.

I'm sure there are other buyers that might be financially unable to purchase tutorials at full price and would view this as an opportunity to gain a little knowledge @ a discounted price.

I also agree that buying used may be a great way to introduce buyers to a tutorial author. After purchasing a used tutorial, they may appreciate a particular author's style and purchase additional "new" tutorials from that author.

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

The author would only be losing anything if those people would have actually purchased the full priced tutorial-which is doubtful, or they already would have.

[SteveWright]

If I were creating online tutorials for sale, the top of the tutorial would include the original purchasers name, Like:

http://www.tumbleweedglass.com/image/Solution.pdf

Steve

[Damselfly]

The tutorials I've bought, I would never sell because I like looking at them. I want to reference them when I try it and reach an impasse. Or a year down the road when I haven't made any in six months and I need a refresher.

Same as the books I've bought. I could sell a few of those too, because I've learned all I want to learn from them. Same with all the magazines that I've subscribed to. I like revisiting them, esp as I learn more or need inspiration. I'm sure I'm not that different from most people. I agree that most people are honest and wouldn't intentionally screw the artist.

But I've also bought books on sale, used books, bought magazines off of people instead of ordering a reprint. and if there are tutorials I've been on the fence about and aren't at the top of my wish list, and someone was selling theirs, I'd consider that too, as long as I trusted that they weren't selling dishonestly. And if I loved it enough, I'd consider buying it as a present for some of the lampworkers I know too. I've bought plenty of books for people. It's a great, reasonably priced gift.



PS - Steve, I never said that you sold tutorials. I was just following your hypothetical situation.

And your solution with the name is creative, but I'm not sure what it would solve. Presumably anyone buying the tutorial would know that they're not buying it from the author.

[Damselfly]

Oh, and I'll add this too...

I'd be more likely to try out some of those "not at the top of my list, but still look really interesting" tutorials if I knew that if I really couldn't use them, I'd be able to sell my copy.

Yes, it's possible that some tutorial authors would be happy to refund my money if I was really unhappy for various reasons (don't have the equipment, don't buy that special, really expensive glass, etc, etc) but then they'd be out the sale, and I'd feel like a heel for asking.

But if I could pass it on and delete my copy, I'd be more likely to try it, and someone else might get hooked on that author, like has been said. (or feel the need to pay it forward and buy another for someone else, like I do.)

Of course, I've yet to buy a tutorial that I've been willing to give up, so it's more likely that I'd buy it and want to keep it anyways.

[Ashtonjewels]

When you buy a used book, the price that it's purchased for is based on it's physical condition vs. the current market value of it's content. When you buy a pdf tutorial, the condition of that pdf doesn't change. It's not in "like-new" condition or "used" condition, or "okay" condition. When you sell it to someone else, the copy that you MAKE and SELL to them won't have scuffed up covers, bent pages that were once used to serve as crude bookmarks, or even little coffee stains. Books gain value too if they become collectible. I'm pretty sure PDFs will not. If reselling PDFs is perfectly okay, what will happen if everyone starts doing it as soon as they download and printed?

If this is going to be seen as an okay thing to do in this community, I request only one thing. . Please don't sell them for less than their market value because if you do, other people will too. We'll see this type of thing in the garage more and more because people need money really bad right now. If copies of my tutorials are sold in the garage at half their price, I will have to drop my price too in order to compete against the sales of unauthorized copies of my own material and so will everyone else that writes PDF tutorials.

[Damselfly]

Personally, I would never sell anything I planned to keep (hell, I don't plan on selling any tut I've bought), but I can see your point, Lydia.

But if it's a use thing, like new vs. scratch and dent, then what about the presses I have that have only been used a dozen times, yet are in pristine condition? I would still have to sell those at a loss, or else there's no incentive to buy them from me.

I would hope that no one who buys a tutorial would have to sell them just for the money. They're not that expensive, so hopefully if you bought it, you have it to spend.

I doubt this is going to be a huge trend. Too many people would rather buy from the artist directly anyways.

[midniteburner]

Jack, it looks like you opened a can of worms with this thread. Well, let me give you a few words of advice about the people here on this forum...

The people who have given you support are actually in the planning stages of the witch hunt. They are secretly egging you on with their encouraging words.

So...now you are saying "what's a witch hunt?" I will be more than happy to explain this shindig to the best of my ability.

Newbie Nancy pisses people off with a thread or action. The community retaliates by holding this so called "witch hunt". Oh and they laughing while everything is being planned too.

Everyone cooks lots of quite delectable food, feeds Nancy Newbie tills she weighs approx. 600 lbs. then the real fun begins. They roll her down a hill into a vat of Gorilla Glue and sticks all the wonkies they have saving for years on her!

So...

Sara

[Damselfly]

Originally Posted by midniteburner

Jack, it looks like you opened a can of worms with this thread. Well, let me give you a few words of advice about the people here on this forum...

The people who have given you support are actually in the planning stages of the witch hunt. They are secretly egging you on with their encouraging words.

So...now you are saying "what's a witch hunt?" I will be more than happy to explain this shindig to the best of my ability.

Newbie Nancy pisses people off with a thread or action. The community retaliates by holding this so called "witch hunt". Oh and they laughing while everything is being planned too.

Everyone cooks lots of quite delectable food, feeds Nancy Newbie tills she weighs approx. 600 lbs. then the real fun begins. They roll her down a hill into a vat of Gorilla Glue and sticks all the wonkies they have saving for years on her!

So...

Sara

What the hell???

I'm not egging anyone on, nor have I ever chastized a newbie or participated in a "witchhunt" against them. In fact, I'm usually one of the people sticking up for them.

Silly me, I thought we were all having a discussion here.