Lampwork Etc.
 
AKDesign

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat




Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Tips, Techniques, and Questions

Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2012-01-03, 2:36pm
glassjones's Avatar
glassjones glassjones is offline
Loook eeentooo my eyyees
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Grand Cane, Louisiana
Posts: 298
Default Can you use 104 enamels to torch fire on copper?

Anyone know if 104 enamels will work alright torch fired onto copper?
__________________
Lisa


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2012-01-03, 2:50pm
vetropod's Avatar
vetropod vetropod is offline
critter creator
 
Join Date: Mar 22, 2006
Location: western MA
Posts: 812
Default

Lisa I am no expert on enamels, but took an enameling (on copper/silver) workshop this fall and from what I know - the answer is no. I was curious about this as well, since I use Thompson enamels in my glass work.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2012-01-03, 2:53pm
glassjones's Avatar
glassjones glassjones is offline
Loook eeentooo my eyyees
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Grand Cane, Louisiana
Posts: 298
Default

Rats. That's a bummer. I may have some left from making copper enamel beads years ago but it's chunky mostly like really big frit. My 104 is perfectly powdery.
__________________
Lisa


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2012-01-03, 3:06pm
Yvon Yvon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 07, 2005
Location: Santa Fe - City Too Different
Posts: 1,165
Default

There is a book by Barbara Lewis on firing enamels onto metals for beads and such, but the book does indicate that the enamels are by Thompson specifically for copper, silver and gold and other metals. The book has lots of information, great ideas and inspiration.

http://www.amazon.com/Torch-Fired-En.../dp/1440308861

Also, on Etsy there are many sellers with torch-fired enamelled beads, just for browsing.

I'm thinking that the 104 enamels would not work, but someone else might have more insight. Someone is bound to have already tried it and would have the correct answer for you.

Yvonne
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2012-01-03, 3:35pm
echeveria's Avatar
echeveria echeveria is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 31, 2006
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 2,031
Default

Call Thompsons and ask.
__________________
Kathy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2012-01-03, 3:49pm
bluhealer bluhealer is offline
Jer. 29:11, Prov.10:19
 
Join Date: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 487
Default

Technically no, but I have done it, with the purples and orchids, and it has worked. Not sure where the piece is now, but last time I looked the finish was fine and the piece was 2+ years old at that point.

Probably fine for practicing til you can get the proper ones.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2012-01-03, 4:57pm
jaci's Avatar
jaci jaci is offline
Glass-aholic
 
Join Date: Mar 21, 2007
Location: CT, tolland CT
Posts: 4,332
Default

Can you put copper in beads with enamel?

If so.. I don't see why not. Maybe?
__________________
Minor 10lpm Oxy-Con + HH on Propylene . . . . . .

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hand dyed silk ribbons in many colors!
WASHERS & TOPPERS - layering components for interchangeable glass topper and to use in other jewelry/metalwork.:
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2012-01-03, 5:04pm
glassymom's Avatar
glassymom glassymom is offline
Mr Brutus RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 29, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,369
Default

well about 1 year ago I used my thompson 104 enamels for glass on a flower copper shape that I cut out. I used two different shades of green. it is on my desk, gets pushed around, mixed with my give away beads dish, kids pick it up and try to play with it..LOL Its still just as good looking as when I did it. I never tried any others but I figured I'd share my 2 cents just incase anyone was curious.
sue
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2012-01-03, 5:12pm
glassjones's Avatar
glassjones glassjones is offline
Loook eeentooo my eyyees
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Grand Cane, Louisiana
Posts: 298
Default

Thanks for the info everyone. I appreciate the input
__________________
Lisa


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2012-01-04, 10:41am
mtnglass's Avatar
mtnglass mtnglass is offline
T.J. made me do it
 
Join Date: May 09, 2007
Location: Tahoe-Douglas, NV
Posts: 1,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvon View Post
There is a book by Barbara Lewis on firing enamels onto metals for beads and such, but the book does indicate that the enamels are by Thompson specifically for copper, silver and gold and other metals. The book has lots of information, great ideas and inspiration.

http://www.amazon.com/Torch-Fired-En.../dp/1440308861

Also, on Etsy there are many sellers with torch-fired enamelled beads, just for browsing.

I'm thinking that the 104 enamels would not work, but someone else might have more insight. Someone is bound to have already tried it and would have the correct answer for you.

Yvonne
Ms. Lewis uses murrini as inclusions in some of her pieces so I am thinking that 104 is probably okay. I think the problem is in using anything but 104 enamels on lampwork.
__________________
Julie
-Outwest Art Glass

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2012-01-04, 10:51am
mewkittie's Avatar
mewkittie mewkittie is offline
Uh Oh....
 
Join Date: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1,039
Default

The enamels used for copper, silver and other metals is different than the 104 Thompson enamels for glass. They are a different COE. You can use a bit of it on metal but covering a whole piece of metal with glass enamels will surely cause cracking. Some colors are more sensitive to issues than others.
__________________
Susan

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:22pm
mtnglass's Avatar
mtnglass mtnglass is offline
T.J. made me do it
 
Join Date: May 09, 2007
Location: Tahoe-Douglas, NV
Posts: 1,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mewkittie View Post
The enamels used for copper, silver and other metals is different than the 104 Thompson enamels for glass. They are a different COE. You can use a bit of it on metal but covering a whole piece of metal with glass enamels will surely cause cracking. Some colors are more sensitive to issues than others.
Do you know what COE metal is?
__________________
Julie
-Outwest Art Glass

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:31pm
mtnglass's Avatar
mtnglass mtnglass is offline
T.J. made me do it
 
Join Date: May 09, 2007
Location: Tahoe-Douglas, NV
Posts: 1,120
Default

I just called Joan at Schlaiffer's Enamels. She is out of town until the 6th so I will report back here when I hear from her. Hopefully she will provide some clarification on this subject.
__________________
Julie
-Outwest Art Glass

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:36pm
AmorphousDesigns's Avatar
AmorphousDesigns AmorphousDesigns is offline
Wonder-wench
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2010
Location: land of milk & honey
Posts: 1,104
Default

from the table in this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion

it looks like copper has a COE of 170 (in the same units as we use for 104, 96, 33, etc)
__________________
Elizabeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:57pm
cheng076's Avatar
cheng076 cheng076 is offline
Curmudgeon Engineering
 
Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,723
Default

So the closest glass in COE terms might be the very soft Jappanese glasses?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2012-01-04, 12:58pm
mewkittie's Avatar
mewkittie mewkittie is offline
Uh Oh....
 
Join Date: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 1,039
Default

I've also read that copper is around 170 COE and even then I think there might be some issues with the shape of copper that changes the COE. I've had issues enameling round copper wire. The enamel keeps sharding off. But if I pound the wire flat and enamel it, it's good.
__________________
Susan

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2012-01-04, 8:16pm
AmorphousDesigns's Avatar
AmorphousDesigns AmorphousDesigns is offline
Wonder-wench
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2010
Location: land of milk & honey
Posts: 1,104
Default

from this site:

http://www.porcelainenamel.com/pei502.htm

enamal COE's range from 80 to 140 depending on composition. Enamel is stronger in compression, so if there is a COE mismatch, it's better if the enamel has a lower COE than the metal. Maybe that's why some people have had success with 104 COE enamel on 170 COE copper?
__________________
Elizabeth

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2012-01-05, 11:50am
beatlebaby's Avatar
beatlebaby beatlebaby is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 10, 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 6
Default

Anyone try it on silver?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2012-01-05, 1:37pm
mtnglass's Avatar
mtnglass mtnglass is offline
T.J. made me do it
 
Join Date: May 09, 2007
Location: Tahoe-Douglas, NV
Posts: 1,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMagicGlass View Post
from this site:

http://www.porcelainenamel.com/pei502.htm

enamal COE's range from 80 to 140 depending on composition. Enamel is stronger in compression, so if there is a COE mismatch, it's better if the enamel has a lower COE than the metal. Maybe that's why some people have had success with 104 COE enamel on 170 COE copper?
I talked to a technician at Thompson and the COE for the enamels used on metal is 86-120 depending on the color. I think it is more that you shouldn't use enamels for metal on glass than the other way around.
__________________
Julie
-Outwest Art Glass

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2012-01-07, 11:19pm
glassjones's Avatar
glassjones glassjones is offline
Loook eeentooo my eyyees
 
Join Date: Aug 09, 2005
Location: Grand Cane, Louisiana
Posts: 298
Default

Thanks for checking Julie. Think I am going to try it and will let you know the outcome.
__________________
Lisa


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 2012-02-19, 12:32am
katz04 katz04 is offline
katz04
 
Join Date: Jan 24, 2012
Location: Edmonton AB
Posts: 6
Default

Does anyone know if copper wire can be placed directly on a bead ( no enamel ) the same as using silver wire?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:14pm.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 3.235.108.188