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| Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2011-08-27, 5:51pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 19, 2006
Location: Orland Park, Illinois
Posts: 729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemsinbloom
I just want to say I really love your beads. I drool over them often.
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Thank you, I'm flattered, but I think your beads are the ones to drool over. I've been wanting to purchase one, but you make it sooo difficult to choose! I'll just have to make a decision.
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Kathie
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2011-08-27, 6:33pm
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Ass-kicking Cephalopod
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Join Date: Jun 19, 2006
Location: Duh, Squidville
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Donna was taking the high road - way different then being ok with it. One of the new copycat vendors bought beadrollers and THEN made direct copies of them - not cool.
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DOG is my co-pilot
Cricket w/two 5 lpm oxycons - and sometimes a Minor.
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2011-08-27, 6:39pm
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A True Woofer
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: the land of nod
Posts: 3,895
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Yup. I have no problem with making a tool like someone else's; it's the outright stealing of design or ideas that pisses me off. Wanna make a bead roller? Fine. Make it, but don't make the cavities the exact same sizes and shapes as Donna's. Wanna make a bead corer? Fine. But come up with a different design like Dave did. Don't just copy Jim Moore's arbor press design like Nortel did. Take it and make it your own. That's what we say about beads; the same thing should apply to tools.
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Ellen
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2011-08-27, 6:46pm
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Cancer SUCKS!
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Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squid
Donna was taking the high road - way different then being ok with it. One of the new copycat vendors bought beadrollers and THEN made direct copies of them - not cool.
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What she said! Donna is a class act.
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Deb in MN
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2011-08-27, 6:50pm
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Dichro Addict
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Join Date: Sep 04, 2005
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaGirlBT
Yup. I have no problem with making a tool like someone else's; it's the outright stealing of design or ideas that pisses me off. Wanna make a bead roller? Fine. Make it, but don't make the cavities the exact same sizes and shapes as Donna's. Wanna make a bead corer? Fine. But come up with a different design like Dave did. Don't just copy Jim Moore's arbor press design like Nortel did. Take it and make it your own. That's what we say about beads; the same thing should apply to tools.
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I agree!. I know how hard Donna works at coming up with new shapes.
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Lenora
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2011-08-27, 8:46pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 08, 2005
Posts: 2,907
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Thank you, Ellen. You said pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Also, if you are going to continue copying people's tool designs, you'd better lawyer up. At some point somebody with a patent is going to come after you. And I sure won't be buying anything from somebody with questionable business ethics.
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2011-08-27, 8:53pm
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CiM Tamarind-Skinned
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Join Date: Apr 28, 2011
Location: Not nearly close enough to the water.
Posts: 426
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The only think I have to say is this: I have a disk rollers from Donna and I have a Donut Shaped roller from one of the competition. I like the way both work. I do have to say that, even though they are different shapes, the competitions tool weighs SIGNIFICANTLY more. So much more that this one aspect alone would make me buy from Donna before anyone else.
One other thing that makes me order from one company over another is how much "good" they do for their community. Donna does a hell of a lot, the competition... not so much.
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2011-08-27, 9:17pm
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HOt WArm COld = Howaco
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Join Date: Jun 30, 2005
Location: Bland Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownGirl
One other thing that makes me order from one company over another is how much "good" they do for their community. Donna does a hell of a lot, the competition... not so much.
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Quite a few people keep making digs at the company that copied Donna but no one has said who that company is. I am hoping this comment is not directed at me. I do quite a bit for this community, I just don't openly talk about what I do.
I purchase the rollers I carry from my distributor. Who is the company that copied her rollers? I would like to know who it is.
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JameyLynn, Howaco Glass
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2011-08-27, 9:23pm
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CiM Tamarind-Skinned
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Join Date: Apr 28, 2011
Location: Not nearly close enough to the water.
Posts: 426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howaco
Quite a few people keep making digs at the company that copied Donna but no one has said who that company is. I am hoping this comment is not directed at me. I do quite a bit for this community, I just don't openly talk about what I do.
I purchase the rollers I carry from my distributor. Who is the company that copied her rollers? I would like to know who it is.
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Honestly, I wasn't even trying to make a dig at anyone. The donut roller I was talking about is from Devardi. It's really really heavy. The shape is okay but, the weight gets to be a bit much. I don't know what they go by on here or if they go by Devardi but I never see them contributing much to the community. I haven't been here for a long time so I don't know their screen names.
I am sorry if you thought I was making a dig at you. I wasn't. I wasn't trying to make digs at all. It was more of a general, "This is what I go by when I decide to buy regularly from a company."
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2011-08-27, 9:34pm
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HOt WArm COld = Howaco
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Join Date: Jun 30, 2005
Location: Bland Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,960
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No offense taken. People were basically talking about Donna's rollers and the one's I carry, so I made the assumption that you were addressing me. I didn't even realize that Davardi even had rollers I had not looked at their site in a long time.
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JameyLynn, Howaco Glass
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2011-08-27, 9:55pm
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CiM Tamarind-Skinned
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Join Date: Apr 28, 2011
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Yeah, I realize that now and it sure did look like I was making snarky digs. Sorry about that. I have never had the pleasure of purchasing anything from you but, when I first joined up here, everyone said you were the go-to-girl for buying glass for beginners.
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2011-08-28, 4:17am
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Dark Flower Bead Art
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Join Date: Jan 01, 2010
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 1,629
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I feel the same way about tools as I feel about tutorials and beads, i WANT to give my money to vendors who make a good product and who I respect in the lampworking community. Business is business. I have a healthy collection of donna's rollers and I will buy from her in the future because (1) she makes a great product (2) she has great customer service (3) i respect her as an artist and want to support her. I have no doubt i will continue to buy from her HOWEVER that being said, cometition is a healthy part of business and if any other vendors make a quality product at a reasonable price we all win. This is one of the reasons LE is such a valuable resource to me, I learn from others experiences. I buy my glass from several vendors and I feel confident i will also buy tools from several vendors. It's what makes a free market economy great.
Cara
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[color="DarkOrchid"]** Check out my Etsy site
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[/COLOR
Handmade at amazon
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2011-08-28, 6:57pm
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Burn baby, burn
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Join Date: Apr 24, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownGirl
Yeah, I realize that now and it sure did look like I was making snarky digs. Sorry about that. I have never had the pleasure of purchasing anything from you but, when I first joined up here, everyone said you were the go-to-girl for buying glass for beginners.
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She's fab! I'm a Bullseye girl, so when I started dipping my toe in the 104 pool I was totally overwhelmed, so I talked to JameyLynn and she picked out a selection in certain color ranges and sent them along. I've loved them, and am getting ready for another scoop of a rod each of certain colors to try them out.
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Lisa Hamilton
minor/oxycon
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2011-08-28, 9:46pm
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I like to melt things
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Join Date: Jul 22, 2008
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,163
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I haven't tried these other brands, but I am a totally visual person, and my tools have to be both attractive and comfortable to use.
So... I love the CG Bead Rollers because the handle is interesting to look at AND comfortable, and I am going to try the Pegasus ones because they have really attractive wooden handles, but I probably won't ever try these cheaper versions because they are ugly. It doesn't matter how cheap something is if I don't ever want to pick it up and use it.
How's that for fickle buyer behaviour?
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Melanie
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2011-08-29, 4:55am
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Angie09
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2009
Posts: 1,788
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I have used both CG beadrollers and I purchased one from Howaco. The one from Howaco is significantly heavier which surprised me but was a great price! I ended up selling it cuz I never used it ... mainly cuz the shape of the cavities ended up not to be my favorite. Had I not used a CG before I'm sure I won't have thought twice about the weight.
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2011-08-29, 9:23pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 08, 2010
Posts: 855
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Copycats abound. If it is painfully obvious that someone has produced a knock off tool, I won't touch it out of respect for the original inventor. For example, The D-word company has a knock of of Arrow Springs Lani Ching Shaper. Of course the quality is not there, but it makes me a little sick to see something that someone invented basically ripped off, intentionally. It shows the character of the business and its owners when they commit intellectual theft.
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2011-08-29, 9:42pm
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HOt WArm COld = Howaco
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Join Date: Jun 30, 2005
Location: Bland Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,960
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It that is the case then vendors should not carry CIM, Vetrofond, BE, Uro etc since they all came after Effetre.
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JameyLynn, Howaco Glass
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2011-08-30, 1:11am
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Senior Member
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Um, no. Glass is not the same unless someone is stealing actual recipes. People research, design, engineer and test tools before releasing them for sale. Then some unethical opportunist comes along, steals the idea and design and reaps the rewards without putting in the effort it takes to invent said tool. No amount of sugarcoating can disguise an obvious rip off. In the tech world intellectual theft is prosecuted. Unfortunately for our tools there isn't enough profit to make it worthwhile to pursue a criminal investigation. But its still shameful, its a small world and people watch and remember when it comes time to choose where they spend their money.
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2011-08-30, 6:24am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 18, 2009
Location: Texas!
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtarara
Um, no. Glass is not the same unless someone is stealing actual recipes. People research, design, engineer and test tools before releasing them for sale. Then some unethical opportunist comes along, steals the idea and design and reaps the rewards without putting in the effort it takes to invent said tool. No amount of sugarcoating can disguise an obvious rip off. In the tech world intellectual theft is prosecuted. Unfortunately for our tools there isn't enough profit to make it worthwhile to pursue a criminal investigation. But its still shameful, its a small world and people watch and remember when it comes time to choose where they spend their money.
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So I take it you drive a Ford?
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2011-08-30, 7:14am
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A True Woofer
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: the land of nod
Posts: 3,895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtarara
Um, no. Glass is not the same unless someone is stealing actual recipes. People research, design, engineer and test tools before releasing them for sale. Then some unethical opportunist comes along, steals the idea and design and reaps the rewards without putting in the effort it takes to invent said tool. No amount of sugarcoating can disguise an obvious rip off. In the tech world intellectual theft is prosecuted. Unfortunately for our tools there isn't enough profit to make it worthwhile to pursue a criminal investigation. But its still shameful, its a small world and people watch and remember when it comes time to choose where they spend their money.
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Great post, Mary. I don't think people understand that there's a difference between developing your own tool that accomplishes the same purpose and stealing someone else's design. There is a huge ethical, moral and legal difference. If I want to make a car, say my own car, I'm not going to go to Ford and steal the blueprints and make my car. I'm going to develop my own car. Just because someone makes something that accomplishes the same thing doesn't mean they stole the design. Amy made presses after Corina, but came up with her own design for them. Dave made a corer but didn't use an arbor press. Mary's Mini Cooper is not a copy of a Ford, other than it has 4 wheels and gets her from point A to point B.
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Ellen
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2011-08-30, 7:19am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 08, 2010
Posts: 855
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Just to clarify I was not talking about basic tools like a marver or basic round shaper. I am talking about a unique tool that has been copied as closely as they possibly can.
Howaco, I was not referencing your company at all.
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2011-08-30, 7:33am
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Rose colored glasses…√
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Join Date: Jul 22, 2005
Location: Monticello, FL
Posts: 8,259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redayh
So I take it you drive a Ford?
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I really don't think cars can be lumped into the copying game. No automotive company made a direct copy of a Model T, or, thank God, a Pinto. In fact, the internal combustion engine wasn't invented by Henry Ford, or even Karl Benz, or even Daimler. The concepts were broadened; the theories were maximized; different fuels were explored; the game changed. I don't think anyone gets highly irritated by one company expanding on a general concept that another company has also expanded upon. What people get irritated by is outright copying.
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OMG I listed some stuff!!! Little devils ARE ice skating!!!
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2011-08-30, 8:20am
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HOt WArm COld = Howaco
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Join Date: Jun 30, 2005
Location: Bland Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtarara
Glass is not the same unless someone is stealing actual recipes.
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I don't know if recipes were stolen or not, but do you buy Vetrofond? Their colors mirror Effetre's almost to a T.
There are people in this thread that have said they have owned shapers of some sort (I think they said brass) before CG came up with hers. I think it is a very slippery slope to say that CG was first when there is a whole world out there, not just the group of people here on LE.
Look at marble molds. Just grind a grove slot and you have a round bead roller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtarara
But its still shameful, its a small world and people watch and remember when it comes time to choose where they spend their money.
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Exactly. I also have that right. Just because I am a vendor does not mean that I have to spend money where I don't want to. If my distributor had not picked up this line of bead rollers, I would not carry rollers in my store.
I'm kinda done with this thread, there are two sides to this discussion and I know people's minds are made up, which is alright, everyone has that right.
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JameyLynn, Howaco Glass
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2011-08-30, 10:12am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 08, 2010
Posts: 855
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I just looked at the Howaco shapers and they are not the same as the cg bead rollers.
The D-word shapers aren't the same either, but the d-word company does have a very spot on copy of arrow springs work.
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2011-08-30, 10:43am
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Queen Tut ;)
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Join Date: Jun 01, 2010
Location: Bedford, VA
Posts: 773
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I have both (not devardi's, ugh) and have no preference. I like all the variety of options that Donna has, her shapes are killer cool. When I can afford more tools, I will place an order with Donna in a heartbeat...especially because I know I can get a baroque, ribbed bi-cone, stubby bi-cone...and some other unique to her shapes.
Competition breeds invention.
Is that the saying?
Person X builds a cool little gadget that goes around your house and makes sure your lights are off when you're not home. Person Y says, 'Hmm, great idea, but I see room for improvement." They make a similar gadget that does the same, but looks like a dinosaur, weighs less, and you can program a light you'd like it to leave on. Person Z copies X and Y, looks and functions, and prices them cheaper.
So, I think Person Y is a smart cookie. Saw room for improvement with original idea and did so. Person Z is an f*in' low life ^%& head. Will they sell their gadgets to folks who don't care? Yep. Will folks who care make sure and give business to anyone but Person Z....you betcha.
I think blatant copying is wrong. Improving a design, changing it up a bit to give folks an option...eh, why not? Give folks a choice. Keeps things affordable too.
(P.S. - there is no gadget that goes around turning your lights out when you're not home, dinosaur shaped or not...that was hypothetical  )
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2011-08-30, 11:38am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2006
Location: Ontario @ Michigan border
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redayh
So I take it you drive a Ford?
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Pheeew ... nope ... Fords HATE me ... we have had numerous ones including a commercial fleet and you could be rest assured if I get in a Ford it WILL break.
BUT ... we have NEVER purchased an import (or so I thought) always bought, GMC, Chevy, Dodge, Ford ... just found out that the new GMC trucks are made in Mexico.
Just curious but who`s disc shaper came out first ... was it Zoozii`s or was it CGBeads (sorry my question mark isn`t working) ... same shape different material
My understanding (my mentor told me this - who was in lampwork glass 40 years ago) the person who came out with Vetrofond was originally from Effettre, they had a falling out and he left - but since he was also part of Moretti (thus the name change) he had the recipes to start Vetrofond.
So people should only purchase beads made by the ORIGINAL person that came up with that style (again question mark)
Cheryl
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2011-08-30, 12:16pm
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howaco
Exactly. I also have that right. Just because I am a vendor does not mean that I have to spend money where I don't want to. If my distributor had not picked up this line of bead rollers, I would not carry rollers in my store.
Yes you have the right to do as you feel fit and take the chance of alienating future customers who don't feel its an ethical business decision, whether vendor or distributor manufactured.
I'm kinda done with this thread, there are two sides to this discussion and I know people's minds are made up, which is alright, everyone has that right.
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Yep.
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2011-08-30, 12:37pm
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamscapes Studio
My understanding (my mentor told me this - who was in lampwork glass 40 years ago) the person who came out with Vetrofond was originally from Effettre, they had a falling out and he left - but since he was also part of Moretti (thus the name change) he had the recipes to start Vetrofond.
So people should only purchase beads made by the ORIGINAL person that came up with that style (again question mark)
Cheryl
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I think it was the son that spun off and made Vetrofond.
Jenne, I agree with what you said.
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2011-08-30, 12:47pm
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Senior Member
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[quote=Mountain Snail;3684965]I think it was the son that spun off and made Vetrofond.
Could be, I thought he had said they were family but I couldnt remember `how` they were related.
Isn`t there room for everyone (ok maybe not EVERYONE in the literal sense of the word) but like Jenne said ... it sparks ideas and leads to other inventions
Cheryl
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2011-08-30, 2:05pm
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I fart diamonds
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Location: Altamonte Springs, FL
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CGBeads is most certainly NOT the inventor of beadrollers. I've had a Baroque roller for over 6 years and several other graphite, brass, aluminum and steel bead rollers for years. The argument that you're not going to purchase rollers from anyone except the original inventor because they're all copies is pretty dumb. I doubt anyone here knows exactly who the originator of beadrollers is but it definitely is not Donna.
If Donna has a roller I want, I'll buy from her, if JamyLynn has one, I'll buy from her, etc, etc.
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