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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #571  
Old 2009-12-10, 6:28pm
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I used some the other day and It was starting to boil also. I turned my flame down, and took it real slow, then it worked good.
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  #572  
Old 2009-12-11, 6:37pm
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Does anyone know, must the goldstone rod be encased in clear or can it be used as is?
  #573  
Old 2009-12-11, 9:26pm
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Not sure on the goldstone, but the metallic black made incredible shards (I suck at shards, but I got Virginia @ Playing With Fire to blow some for me--they were AWESOME!!)
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new purple cricket @ home! minicc @ playing with fire in rockland! Sue & Nikki fighting over who gets to anneal the wonkies
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  #574  
Old 2009-12-11, 9:51pm
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dale & Kristina Are you asking about Gold stone rod, other than Devardi? What actually is this Goldstone rod, you are referring to? Are you talking about the golden Luster Rod, by chance? Made by Devardi? If so, go to the Devardi site, and click on Videos. There is so much to learn by watching the videos, over and over.
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  #575  
Old 2009-12-12, 1:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Folly Glassworks View Post
Is anyone working with the Metallic Black? I seem to be blistering it on my Hothead. Any counsel with using it?
Hi - have just started to use this, and needs to be worked COOL, and needs cool striking at the end to get the best look.

Robyn
  #576  
Old 2009-12-13, 4:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firedancer View Post
dale & Kristina Are you asking about Gold stone rod, other than Devardi? What actually is this Goldstone rod, you are referring to? Are you talking about the golden Luster Rod, by chance? Made by Devardi? If so, go to the Devardi site, and click on Videos. There is so much to learn by watching the videos, over and over.
Yes, Devardi's Solid Golden Aventurine Luster Rods. I absolutely love working with it, but so far I have encased it in clear and pulled stringers.

I didn't know they had a video on it. I'll have to go search. I thought I had seen most all their videos.
  #577  
Old 2009-12-14, 11:31am
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Default Inexpensive Rod Warmer Info

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnette View Post
I use a curling iron stove for any "suspect" rods and it works great. You can get them at beauty supply stores for around $35. You can use the top to preheat murrini or keep components warm. I've had this one for several years. (If my kiln is on, I just pop the rods into the kiln to warm up.)



http://texasbeautysupplies.com/ann5527.html

I just got one of these and REALLY like it for pre-warming rods and murrini, but I also found that my rods will droop or start to stick together inside it after a while.

I emailed Shawnette and she said to realize that it gets really hot (around 900 degrees inside) so you need to put some kind of stainless steel plate or grate inside it to keep the rods away from the floor of the heater. She has a piece of metal grate in hers. You don't want to touch the ceramic sides or top with your rods or they may stick.

I set the back ends of my rods on an upside down aluminum nut can so that they sit in the center of the warmer - it's the right height for it. On top I have a stainless steel plate to heat murrini on. Be aware that glass sticks to hot aluminum, so you need a piece of stainless to set your murrini on. The other option is to plug the warmer into a soldering iron temperature regulator and turn the heat down to where the rods don't stick.

I just wanted anyone to know who plans to get one. The nut can came from Walmart by the way!

Last edited by Fine Folly Glassworks; 2010-01-01 at 4:10pm.
  #578  
Old 2009-12-14, 8:56pm
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Yes, I am still a licensed Hairstylist, and used this rod heater in my professional work. It does maintain a temp of 875 degrees. This might be better than the usual holding temp of 960 on most kilns. So it is a matter of watching the kettle boil? Pace the rod half way out, and keep just the ends hot? If you do not mind me asking, how, do you handle a rod that hot, when you pull it out? I remember this suggestion, but was worried how I would grab a rod that hot? Wish to know more?
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  #579  
Old 2009-12-14, 10:13pm
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Glass doesn't conduct heat so you can put about half the length of a rod in the warmer and still handle the cool end. When the rod is shorter, punty it up on another rod. A rod holder also works well, you have to find something to balance it on, I use a jar that is about the height of the ceramic oven floor.
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  #580  
Old 2009-12-20, 1:13pm
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Does anyone have any suggestions on preventing cracking if you only have a crockpot to garage in after completing your beads?

Opaque Lt. Blue seems to crack easily, while all the others did great. I used the Devardi Golden Luster Frit, and encased with an effetre stinger.


Last edited by Fine Folly Glassworks; 2009-12-20 at 1:16pm.
  #581  
Old 2009-12-20, 2:22pm
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Try not to do pressed shapes, they are more challenging to survive batch annealing. Smaller work also survives better.
  #582  
Old 2009-12-20, 2:34pm
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If you are encasing, you might want to make sure you give the bead a good final heat, bringing the temperature of the bead all the same. Encasing always failed for me though, when using a fiber blanket. Have never used the crock pot.Oh and do not press the glass two thin.
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  #583  
Old 2009-12-21, 5:05am
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Thank you for the points. Do you think the press puts extra internal stress in the bead, and the final reheating would help balance/reduce it?

I leave the thick beads in the crock pot overnight and that works for some glass combos. For now I just have a large oval kiln to batch anneal in.

Has anyone ever purchased a used kiln and had it shipped? If so, do they survive well?
  #584  
Old 2009-12-21, 7:51am
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I put off spending the money for a kiln, for a long time, but I was wasting so much glass. I decided I was hooked on Lampworking, and if I was gonna do, I was gonna do it right. So I found the chili pepper kiln, afforable, lightweight, comes pre programmed, and I love it.
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  #585  
Old 2009-12-21, 9:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Folly Glassworks View Post
Thank you for the points. Do you think the press puts extra internal stress in the bead, and the final reheating would help balance/reduce it?

I leave the thick beads in the crock pot overnight and that works for some glass combos. For now I just have a large oval kiln to batch anneal in.

Has anyone ever purchased a used kiln and had it shipped? If so, do they survive well?

Pressing the beads cools them down really fast, which puts stress in them. If you reheat them too much, you loose the shape.Thermal cracks are a common problem when batch annealing pressed beads-but some do it, just cautiously.
  #586  
Old 2009-12-21, 9:54am
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Guess I need to start saving for that Chili Pepper kiln! I am definitely hooked on this fabulous craft!
  #587  
Old 2009-12-21, 11:02am
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You will love your kiln! Right now I am saving for a digital controller. I am tired of babysitting it!
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  #588  
Old 2009-12-21, 11:41am
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BubbyAnn,
Thanks for all your tests and for sharing all of your information. Im just getting started in glass and there is SO much I don't know!
Steph
  #589  
Old 2009-12-23, 8:50am
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I just wanted to say that you guys have been making some beautiful pieces with Devardi!!! I love them all!

Happy Holidays,
Jack
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  #590  
Old 2009-12-23, 8:56am
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Can't remember if I've shown this or not and I'm too lazy to go back through all of the posts to find out. Forgive me if I have. Metallic black!



Jack
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  #591  
Old 2009-12-23, 9:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M View Post
Can't remember if I've shown this or not and I'm too lazy to go back through all of the posts to find out. Forgive me if I have. Metallic black!



Jack
So classy - thanks for putting it up to see!
  #592  
Old 2009-12-29, 10:35pm
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So far I have tried 29 colors--17 ordered and 12 bonus samples--10 transparents, 6 semi-opaques and 13 opaques. Not one shattered. Only one, when I came to a significant change in diameter, quietly separated from the rod when I was winding on.

I thought it might be helpful to share some observations of how I normally work that might explain why Devardi glass works for me. Hopefully, this willgive some others new to the glass some things to try.

1. I use an Arrowsprings kiln with a rod rest to preheat the ends of the rods in the kiln.

2. When I was first starting in glass, I ordered BE, Effetre, Satake and even some boro, so from the beginning I got used to having to change techniques with different glasses.

3. Working with Satake, I'm used to the vagaries of handpulled canes. Now THERE are some wonky looking canes, a lot of which make Devardi look down right machined, and they definitely aren't $6/lb. But it's some of the most incredibly beautiful glass around.

4. Whenever I introduce a cut end into the flame, I start waaaay out at the tip, rotating just the sharp edges in the flame until they glow and begin to melt. I have both a Hot Head and a Major--just using the top burner--and I never bounce or wave at either of them. When the end begins to glow, I move it closer to the center of the flame.

5. Because it's possible to run past the preheated portion of any rod, especially when winding on a lot of glass for a large base bead, I have my torches set closer to horizontal than vertical. With the mandrel perpendicular to the flame and the rod of glass lined up with the flame as near to parallel and just above it, it continues to preheat the rod. This also helps me to keep the glass centered on the bead when I am winding on.

6. I had to clear all the BE out of the kiln and off the table before starting, so going from that the stiffness was hardly a problem. Though I did "warm up" with a couple of test beads of my latest Cool Colors from Effetre for comparison. With brings up some observations about working Devardi.

--I've always thought of BE to Effetre to Satake as a spetrum running from highest viscosity to lowest, from most heat needed to least and for holding heat from coolest to warmest to go along with the different COEs. Devardi seems to share traits from all three.

--I have the flame turned down closer to what I would use for Satake (though I actually prefer the Hot Head for Satake), the viscosity (stiffness) I find to be closer to BE than Effetre, though it is definitely--the only word I can think of--"chewier" than either of them (think warm taffy rather than cold honey) which is a bit like Satake. It is definitely nowhere near as stiff as Effetre's alabaster or, even stiffer, opalino--now there's one for taking a nap while waiting for it to melt down.

--Being lazy and impatient, I usually wind on all the glass at once and then melt it down rather than adding some glass, melting it down and adding more. Since it takes longer to melt all the way down (and is a good way to introduce bubbles), it is a bit self-defeating. Sigh. Bad habits die hard. The amount of time and manipulation it takes to shape the bead with Devardi is almost identical to BE, though it is easier to shape with heat alone. Though again, both the time and manipulation needed is just a fraction of the alabaster and opalinos.

--BE seems to almost "throw off" heat and cools very quickly, which means you need to constantly remember to bring it back into the flame if you're working on surface decorations. Satake seems to "draw in" heat to the core, which means you need to constantly remember to keep taking it OUT of the flame, even before everything is melted down. In fact, if you've over heated the core and try to add raised dots, you can have it out of the flame constantly turning the mandrel and watch all your bumps disappear without even getting near the torch. Devardi seems to "hold on" to the heat a bit longer than Effetre but without any distortion. This makes working raised decoration an absolute joy. When heat is added to the raised areas, it is more evenly absorbed rather than from the top down--as with BE or Effetre--or from the bottom up--as with Satake. This means they will adhere nicely without melting in and will smooth out without losing definition. Though, of course, you can melt them in if you keep applying heat. They don't seem to spread when they do.

--Raised decorations brings up stringers. I prefer to pull continuous stringers off the rod with tweezers. With the thicker Devardi rods, pulling straight and consistent stringers is a breeze. What I especially love is using it for encased stringers. The thicker, stiffer rods don't bend out of shape while striping on those lush saturated transparents. After shaping with mashers and melting it smooth, with other glasses, ususally one of two things happen. After pulling off several stringers, the glob on the encased rod either cracks off because it has cooled too much, or if I've managed to keep moving it back into the flame, it melts off at the rod leaving the glob on the end of the last stringer pulled. With Devardi, the first pull is out of the flame and then I can pull stringers continuously that are good to the last drop and the core rod is ready for the next encased stringer or twistie. And twisties, with the colors striped down the central rod and pulled off continuously while twisting the rod, are the straightest and most consistent I've ever pulled. And also good to the last drop. The stiffness and "stickiness" from the heat retention makes them far easier to apply.

I've only just started mixing some elements with Effetre with some mixed success. I heavily encased a core of Devardi white with Effetre's transparent dark purple to make a heart bead that was cracked on both sides running parael to the mandrel. It looked more like a thermal crack than incompatibility and I thought it might have been that I didn't get enough heat soaked in before putting it in the kiln because I was trying not to melt down the surface decorations. The next day I put it back in the kiln to reheat and then melted the cracks back out I thought and had it glowing before putting it back in the kiln, but the next day it had cracks on both sides again. I'm not sure if they were the same or new ones. I did another purple heart today with an Effetre white core and the surface decorations and no cracks when I took it out this evening. I'll have to try a repeat of the Devardi/Effetre mix with a little more time heating before putting it in the kiln and see what happens. An interesting note, stringers pulled from Devardi white encased in Effetre transparent go back to behaving like Effetre rather than Devardi when applied.

Still lots more testing to do, but there is no doubt I'll be ordering a lot more of this glass and already I can foresee Devardi becoming my primary 104 COE glass with the others being used to fill in the gaps in the Devardi line.

Sorry about the lack of pictures, but I'm going to have to figure out how to take happy snaps of the beads with my simple point and shoot camera, then it seems I've got to learn photo editing and then figure out how to upload them. With over 17 pages of threads in the photography forum, this could be a while--as you can see I still haven't figured out how to add a picture as my avatar or even how to get past the Quick Reply and add all the little smilie faces (not that this post turned out to be particularly "quick").

Oh, well. Happy beading folks!

Phoebe

Last edited by psor; 2009-12-30 at 9:47am. Reason: typos
  #593  
Old 2009-12-30, 6:10am
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Very nicely explained Phoebe. I love pulling stringers with Devardi also. In fact, if i get one of those big fat rods, I pull it the size of an efferte rod, and then I do not have to spend so much time, pre warming. Thanks for your great post.
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  #594  
Old 2009-12-30, 7:59am
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Hi Everyone,

After reading Phoebe's great review I thought I would post a write-up by Daniel (who owns Devardi Glass with his wife Natasha). He just posted this on the ISGB forum. The link to it is below.

As you may know, he and his wife don't post here anymore (to our loss as you will see) due to the determined rudeness of a number of people toward them. His info and data is so good I wanted to quote him for our benefit and reference.


WRITE-UP:
"My name is Daniel and my wife and I own Devardi Glass. Natasha, my wife, has repeatedly stated she won’t post on these threads anymore, and she hasn’t. But I thought in light of this new thread, it is time that I include some information and other comments about our glass.

First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who have supported us through this first year of our operation. Your overwhelming support and kindness has made us feel very welcome in the Lampworking community. I just want to thank you all.

Please allow me to address a few issues that have arisen concerning our glass. I’m not here to try to sell our glass or argue with anyone, but just offer some helpful information and my own opinions about certain issues concerning our glass. It seems only fair that in light of certain comments made on these forums about our glass that I should be able to address them from my perspective.

First of all, some facts: Devardi Glass is a lower heat glass. It is manufactured in India where they do not use oxygen in their lampworking processes. They use LP gas with forced air to melt their glass. Although this process can reach extreme temperatures, it is still a lower temperature than what can be achieved when mixing propane with oxygen. This huge lower heat lampworking industry resulted in the formation of lower heat glasses such as Devardi. Consequently, if you use Devardi Glass in the more robust flames that many lampworkers are used to, a host of problems can occur. This is actually no different from any glass. For example, if you use a premix torch with most other COE 104 glasses, they will burn, discolor and ruin, and can be rather shocky. That is why they must be worked with a surface mix torch because a surface mixed torch is much cooler and alleviates most of these problems. Well, Devardi Glass must be worked even cooler. You can use a surface mix oxygen/propane torch, but just not as intensely as you would other COE 104 glasses. The rods need to be heated slower in the flame when you start, or pre-warmed, and the glass needs to be worked with a lower flame and in the upper tip of the flame. If it is worked cooler, there will be no burning, foaming, scum, cracking or other negative issues mentioned in some of these forums. The glass works very nicely with the correct heat setting. This is why there have been so many people who claim they love the glass, because they took the time to learn these lower heat settings.

One nice thing I have found with this glass is that if you do overheat it and cause “devit” to surface, simply back off the heat and allow the bead to cool a bit. Then, reheat it until the surface melts. The devit just disappears. Of course, only experience with the glass will reveal this technique. Those who barely try the glass usually don’t discover this right away, the reason beginners that tend to work too hot might complain about devit. Actually, it is only just a few colors in the opaques that are subject to this issue. Most are not. But, just lower the heat and work it cooler, and it’s not an issue in any of the colors.

Additionally, you will find that most of the Devardi colors are very saturated with pigment. This has nothing to do with its quality and it does not reflect in any way other glass quality. It’s just how Devardi Glass is made. What this means is that very thin amounts of glass will be very rich in color. This more saturated color in Devardi Glass does add a different look to your lampwork, something many have found appealing. However, because of this saturation of color, admittedly, this can reduce compatibility of the glass with itself and with other glass lines. You may run across a combination of colors that just will not work. (Although this is true of all glass lines.) We have been working extensively with our glass colors and with other COE 104 glasses to isolate any area that may be a problem. We are very pleased though to find that Devardi Glass is very compatible with itself with a high percentage of combinations, and also with most other COE 104 glasses, even with this saturation of color. In fact, initially, Devardi Glass was specifically designed in India to be compatible with the other glasses in that market, so that the many bead producers in India could use Devardi glass along with what they already used. There are only a few exceptions that we have run across where a combination just would not work. We, and a large number of people in the lampworking community, have successfully combined Devardi Glass with all types of Silver Rich Glass, Moretti (Effetre), Lauscha and many others. And we are very confident to claim that Devardi Glass is a very compatible glass. The biggest problem people run into concerning incompatibility, is that, as mentioned, especially those who are unfamiliar with it, they tend to overheat the glass and ruin it. Devardi Glass will just not be compatible with anything if you overheat and ruin it.

Now, as far as “stones” being in the glass, every once in a while you may run across a kiln stone. This is consistent with hand pulled glass. I’ve seen them in other quality lines too. They have no bearing on the quality of the glass either. They are rare and generally not a problem. If you run across one, just cut it out and continue with your work. If we see one, we will also cut it out.

As far as consistency in the glass, sure, one color may behave differently than another. Each color has its own chemical pigment makeup. Once you get used to this, you’ll know just what to expect in each color. In fact, you will begin to look for the characteristics. As far as inconsistency within a color, honestly, I haven’t found this to be true, at least not enough to make mention of it or refer to it as different from any other glass line. There may be slight variations in color depending on the batch, but that is the extent of any inconsistencies that we have found, and even that is uncommon. And as far as holes running up the length of the rod, we’ve gone through tons of glass in the past year and only saw a very few like that. We will pull them out if we see them, but we may miss one or two here and there. In fact, lately, I haven’t seen any of these. The factory is working hard to produce a much finer, straighter, more uniform looking rod, and is greatly reducing bubbles. Prior to us buying their glass, the factory only used this glass to make their own beads or for other bead factories in India to. So what the glass looked like was unimportant. Now that they are selling the glass to us, they are making a tremendous effort to produce straighter, thinner rods with few bubbles.

Oh, before I forget, if you wish a bubble free transparent Devardi Glass, we just pull stringers. That all but eliminates the bubbles. And stringers are pretty easy to make with this stiff glass.

Another issue I’d like to cover is the cost of our Glass. Some people have stated, “you get what you pay for,” and “if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.” Well, I’d like to ask this question. Is there anyone who thinks Pyrex Glass is a poor quality glass? Or do most people know it is superior quality and perhaps one of the most innovative glasses ever produced? Well, Natasha (my wonderful wife) just went to the market last week and picked up two Pyrex Glass casserole dishes. She paid about $9 for the two. I weighed them. They were nearly 6 lbs. Granted, they were clear, but that is about $1.50 a pound. And how about all the other lovely glassware you can find at the local market in a huge range of colors. Most run less than $2 a pound. So I don’t think price has anything to do with the quality of our glass.

We sell our glass at lower prices because we feel that is a fair price for us to make a living and for lampworkers to be able to acquire our glass without breaking their bank. The price has no reflection on quality. In fact, we checked on wholesale glass prices from Italy in a rod form. They are not that far different from what we pay for Devardi. We are not rich folk. We know what it’s like to be on a budget. So we just sell for less. And we keep our overhead low and try to be as efficient as possible so we can sell for less. Additionally, the reason we sell our general line at the same price regardless of the color is because we take an average cost of the shipment to price the glass. Sure, the pinks cost us a lot more than the blues. But people need both blue and pink. So we average the cost and we come out the same. It works for us and it seems to work for our customers.

As far as glass quality is concerned, I really don’t think we would have as many customers and repeat customers as we do if the glass was low quality. Many of the complaints made against the glass have been from those who tried it just a bit without taking the time to learn how, and discounted it because it wouldn’t work for them. (Actually, most complaints have come from people who never used it at all.) But rarely has there been anyone who has thoroughly used the glass and then decided they didn’t like it and won’t use it. That just isn’t happening. So I think it is safe to say it is a very worthwhile glass. I believe many people are finding the same thing. And, judging from our own experience, that is what we found too.

Some have suggested that since this glass comes from India, it can’t be high quality because India is not as modernized as countries like the US, Germany and Italy, etc., and therefore don’t have the facilities to produce high quality goods. Just remember where some of the finest silks and rugs come from, handmade in India. Sure, when you have an area that has not modernized, you’ll end up with a lot of handmade goods. But they can be some of the best goods on the market. This is actually one of the reasons Lampwork is so sought after, because of the handmade element. Mass produced beads just don’t bring near as much as things given a personal touch. So there is no reason to shy away from handmade glass. It may not be perfectly straight, and there may be some imperfections such as bubbles, since a human is not able to pull as true as a machine can. But, because of the close human interaction, handmade glass can be very high quality.

So why has this Devardi Glass led to so much controversy? Well, I believe it all has to do with the recession. When our glass entered the scene, glass sales were way down for other vendors. No doubt, that really had some glass vendors worried and upset. I know how that feels and it’s an awful feeling. In fact, when we started selling our glass, our jewelry business had taken a nosedive from the recession, and we were also worried and upset. That is why we added the glass to our line. It was either that or sink. But we didn’t realize at the time that glass sales had been so poor for other glass vendors. We meant no harm to anyone and we didn’t intend on cutting into what the recession had left for other glass vendors. That actually makes us feel bad that we may have had a negative impact on other vendors. When we came on the scene with a decent glass line and lower prices, some were upset that another element could negatively impact their already suffering sales. That is perfectly understandable. But, we didn’t expect that, and we weren’t prepared for the onslaught that followed. It was really a nightmare for us to go through what transpired. All we wanted to do is sell some glass. We really couldn’t figure out what we had done wrong and why there were those who were so upset with us. Only the tremendous support from the lampworking community helped us get through it, something we both will never forget. Regrettably, to this day, there are still those who are bitter with us. All we wish is to mend fences with them. But we have accepted that this will likely not happen.

For those of you about to try our glass, all we ask is that you approach it with an opened mind. If you’ve made up your mind that our glass is no good even before you try it, it will never work for you. Going in with a negative attitude will produce negative results every time. But if you’re willing to give it a fair try, that is what we suggest. And what I mean by a fair try is, learn how to use it before you judge. Learn how to properly warm the rods and use the correct heat settings. That is the only way to gain full knowledge and experience of what this glass is like, and avoid the pitfalls that originate from not using it correctly. If you don’t warm the glass correctly or if you overheat it, you won’t like it. It won’t do what it does under proper conditions. So we ask that you learn to do this properly first before passing judgment. After you give it a fair try, maybe you’ll like it, maybe you won’t. But at least if you give it a fair and thorough try, you can claim with experience and integrity one way or the other."

Here's the link to the write-up:

http://www.isgb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14388&page=5
  #595  
Old 2009-12-30, 11:44am
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I am continuing to work with this glass as well and have to say that it is becoming my go to glass. I just don't have anything bad to say about.
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  #596  
Old 2009-12-30, 12:05pm
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I have put DH Axion on both of the red trans and the cranberry. Looks great on both!
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  #597  
Old 2009-12-31, 5:20pm
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Even though I have only been lamp working for around 5 months. Devardi glass has worked well for me. I enjoy making small critters and for a soft glass it handles wonderfully. The customer service has always been an postive experience. If I have a questions regarding glass, shipment etc. Natasha has responded asap.

I am so sorry that you come up against a negative obstacles I can't image how awful any one of us would feel starting out with our glass-work and receiving negative feed back there would be alot less Lampworker. I can assure you as a customer of yours I will be with you through, above or around the obstacle... Devardi Glass "ROCKS"
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  #598  
Old 2009-12-31, 7:26pm
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[quote=PaulaP;2813188]Even though I have only been lamp working for around 5 months. Devardi glass has worked well for me. I enjoy making small critters and for a soft glass it handles wonderfully. The customer service has always been an postive experience. If I have a questions regarding glass, shipment etc. Natasha has responded asap.

I am so sorry that you come up against a negative obstacles I can't image how awful any one of us would feel starting out with our glass-work and receiving negative feed back there would be alot less Lampworker. I can assure you as a customer of yours I will be with you through, above or around the obstacle... Devardi Glass "ROCKS"[/QUOT

all she needs to do now is start advertising
I mean paying for it.
  #599  
Old 2009-12-31, 8:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
...all she needs to do now is start advertising
I mean paying for it.
Sheesh...
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  #600  
Old 2009-12-31, 8:34pm
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Really? Why the blatant rudeness? Hmmm apparently we aren't allowed to be enthusiastic about this glass? I'm not rude when people rave about their experiences with other glass, why would you jump in and be rude here?
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