Regulation for a hothead?

mandyjw · #1 2007-05-24, 5:59am

I now have a regulated hothead. Why have I never heard of doing this before? On a warm day, even a warm day here in Maine the pressure fluctuates so badly that I can't work. My dad works for a propane company and one of the guys he works with ordered a regulator for me. It seems to work really well, and the setup is so much safer now. Why have I never heard of doing this with a hothead?

FourTailsLampwork · #2 2007-05-24, 6:13am

What kind of regulator? What psi? Safety is GOOD, but I thought the HH was designed to work with unregulated propane, and that you wouldn't get as good a flame or as much heat (or even get it to work)--I'm glad to know yours is working just fine. (Oh, is it an older HH or one of the newer models)?

Dale M. · #3 2007-05-24, 7:58am

Yes please share details has its always been professed that a HH requires full tank pressure to function properly...

Please supply us with regulator name and model numbers and pressure range... Pictures would be nice if possible,

Thank You!

Dale

bhhco · #4 2007-05-24, 12:20pm

A one-gas torch functions at 60-90 psig. I think the confusion surrounding the HH is that is can operate at unregulated tank pressure greater than 90 psig. Similarly, the confusion that it is a MAPP torch, when it can be used with MAPP fuel... some one-gas torches cannot be used with MAPP... the HH can... but it can also be used with propane, etc..

When we read that a torch can be operated at full tank pressure, or that it can be used with MAPP, somehow this gets turned around into it cannot be used with a regulator, or it cannot be used with propane successfully.

There is a device within the one-gas torch itself (not the fuel valve) which acts as a pressure reducer... in fact, no one has ever had actual tank pressure coming through the one-gas torch oriface -- it is internally restricted to, I think less than 125 psig (the actual number could be a trade secret, or a liablity issue -- because the manufacturer flat out refused to tell me -- but it is reverse engineerable).

The regulator being used by the poster is probably the standard 'roof tarring, grass burner' adjustable propane regulator which nominally supplies 0-75 psig to a one-gas torch. Grass burner regulators are readily available from a full service propane store -- not a welding shop. They are extensively used in Europe with one-gas torches.

The most likely reason those regulators are not very public is that the HH was designed for low cost acquisition and use. Adding a regulator adds to the cost. HH users will add a hose for bulk fuel... but, IMO, primarily because they see bulk fuel as less expensive. However, adding a regulator does not reduce the operating expensive, so it is much less likely to purchased... especially if the torch can operate without one... as an estimated 40,000+ have/do.

As far as the regulator adding safety... what makes it 'safer'? Is it that the hose is now being stressed at only 60-75 psig, versus the potential 200+ psig full tank pressure? If so, then it's relatively safer. Often the grass burner regulators come with a special tank connector, that if the hose or regulator ruptures will automatiaclly stop gas flow and also acts as a backflow arrestor, all in one. That device is never seen on off-the-shelf two-gas torch regulators.

Overall, a one-gas torch will operate very succesfully with a special 'high pressure' regulator (IMO... even better than without it), and if equipped with the special devices, it has more safety features than two-gas regulators.

Me

mandyjw · #5 2007-05-24, 4:48pm

The regulator goes from 0-60 I believe, no idea it's set on. I use propane, and the regulator is for propane only.

The hothead is designed so it dosen't NEED a regulator, but if the tank pressure is too high the torch really dosen't work for making beads too well, so it works better when regulated. I agree with bhhco, that it probably got turned around so people thought that it SHOULDN'T be regulated.

I'll post more information when I get it.

DaBatt · #6 2007-06-01, 5:20am

This seems to make perfect sense to me - but then again I am very much a newbie!

Two months down the track on my Hot Head & bulk fuel - I am still getting frustrated when I have a full cylinder (I use a 9KG BBQ/Heater cylinder - with LPG).

Fiona (Claybraes on here) uses the same set-up & tells me that there are colors that she can't use when her cylinder has just been filled.... it's seems to me that in my case it is most colors! Many of the blues & greens just seem to turn to mud (or lovely shades of terra cotta & rust), ivory's go greyish & so on. When I get down to under 1/2 full things start to get better & by the time it's almost empty - the colors are perfect. I've tried working further out in the flame - any further out & I'd be in the next room.
I've tried getting the cylinder partially filled - but it only helps to a point & making coninual trips to get this done is a pain.

I went to a specialist Gas servicing place a month or so ago & asked about regulators, as it made sense to me that when I have a full cylinder the gas is coming out faster due to the higher pressure in the tank at the time. They were really helpful information wise & confirmed that it would be running hotter due to the higher pressure when full, but couldn't help with what sort of regulator I would need - mainly because I had no idea of the specs on the torch.

Hopefully the information you have posted will enable me to go back to them with some details about just what sort of regulator I need - although some of the ones that they had were 'bar' regulators.

Any further information, suggestions or comments would be most welcome - & also feel free to point out if you think I am on the wrong track with my thoughts on the above burning my colors!

Cheers,
Deb

Dale M. · #7 2007-06-01, 8:24am

Still waiting for "mandyjw" to get back with details on what regulator she has...

Initial thoughts are that yes a regulator would work... IT will probably have to have a working range of 60 to 120psi - 4.1 to 8.2 bar....

Keep in mind Hot Heads are designed to operate at full tank pressures of about 120psi (8.2 bar) at 70° F. (21.1° C.). Any pressures below about 60 psi is probably going to rended HH useless....

Dale

jokersdesign · #8 2007-06-01, 8:29am

yeah I want details

mandyjw · #9 2007-06-01, 9:41am

The regulator works perfectly. I really wish I had thought of it before. It says Sherwood Streamline 700 series.

The regulator needs to be installed under a hood where it can't get rained on.

There is no such thing as "tank pressure". Tank pressure varies greatly.

I will ask Dad exactly what the PSI range on it is, and what he thinks its set on. I didn't adjust it, he did and I haven't touched it since. A service tech my Dad works with who deals with regulators all the time basically guessed what pressure the torch ran on and ordered the regulator for me.

Deb, for me to work at all the hothead has to be turned down very low to keep the soot out of the clear, and from burning and bubbling the colors. I also make a lot of encased florals and the dots have the be melted in perfectly even, somthing you can't do with a hot flame. In the summer, it will fluctuate so that when I have the torch adjusted where it needs to be set, it will be so low that the torch goes out and then seconds later way, way, way too hot of a flame to work with. Incredibly frustrating. The regulator has so far fixed this.

Sorry I don't know more about this myself, if you have more question I will get Dad to answer them. I will find out exactly what the PSI range is and what its set on.

Dale M. · #10 2007-06-01, 12:41pm

Closest thing I can find is a model 710 which as range of 30 to 60 psi...

http://www.nee.ca/gas/catalogue/singlepage/NEE%209.pdf

This would lead me to believe you are minimal edge of torch performance...

Dale

Dale M. · #11 2007-06-01, 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandyjw

d on.

There is no such thing as "tank pressure". Tank pressure varies greatly.

For reference tank pressure is assumed to be about 110 psi at 70°f....

But you are right.... Tank pressure can vary greatly....

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

See pressure/temperature chart.

Dale

DaBatt · #12 2007-06-01, 4:22pm

Hello again & thanks for the additional information ... & the image of the regulator Mandy.

I'll pop off to the Gas Servicing guys after our long weekend & see what can be done, down here in the Southern Hemisphere!

I have to admit to not knowing much at all about gas cylinders - so my reference to pressure should probably have been 'flow rate'.
Here in New Zealand we are still allowed indoor heaters that run off of these cyliners (that's probably only a matter of time though), as well as BBQ's & patio heaters etc.
The one thing I had noticed with all of the other things that a gas cylinder can be used to 'fuel' is that the appliances all have regulators on them - presumably to stop flames shooting out the outlets. Unlike the HH, they run at an even rate with no noticable fluctuations due to enviromental temperature or fuel level.
I guess that's why it made sense to me to be able to control the flow rate when it's full & seemingly in "burn all colour mode".

I know when I last spoke to the guy at the Gas Servicing place - he told me the PSI rate of a full cylinder as opposed to 1/2 full, then 1/4 full & the drop in PSI wasn't directly proportionate - so I guess it'd be a matter of finding the 'sweet spot' in the fuel level, & the associated approximate PSI & setting the regulator at around that point?

This has been exceptionally helpful - I can at least go back armed with what information is here & it will be a starting point.

Deb

Dale M. · #13 2007-06-01, 5:32pm

Most appliances that use propane use it at very low pressures... Typical 1/4 to 1/3 psi ( 7 to 10 inches of water). This is why you will see regulators on any tank serving stoves and BBQ's....

The HH torch is designed to function with out a regulator. Period.

Adding a regulator may improve performance or stability of flame... So far there has only been 1 or 2 mentions of using regulators on HH and there are literally hundreds of them in use... By the way.... The Hot Head was not specifically designed for glass only... Its a large plumbing/general use torch....

Dale

jokersdesign · #14 2007-06-01, 5:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Most appliances that use propane use it at very low pressures... Typical 1/4 to 1/3 psi ( 7 to 10 inches of water). This is why you will see regulators on any tank serving stoves and BBQ's....

The HH torch is designed to function with out a regulator. Period.

Adding a regulator may improve performance or stability of flame... So far there has only been 1 or 2 mentions of using regulators on HH and there are literally hundreds of them in use... By the way.... The Hot Head was not specifically designed for glass only... Its a large plumbing/general use torch....

Dale

If you look at a hot head bulk hose you could just cut the end off that goes into the tank and with a hose kit you could just fashion a new b fitting and connect it to a regular regulator.

I'm also thinking that with some small copper tubing to solder them into the holes on a hoy head and connect it to a oxygen line and you'd have a hot head on steriods.

DaBatt · #15 2007-06-01, 6:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Most appliances that use propane use it at very low pressures... Typical 1/4 to 1/3 psi ( 7 to 10 inches of water). This is why you will see regulators on any tank serving stoves and BBQ's....

The HH torch is designed to function with out a regulator. Period.

Adding a regulator may improve performance or stability of flame... So far there has only been 1 or 2 mentions of using regulators on HH and there are literally hundreds of them in use... By the way.... The Hot Head was not specifically designed for glass only... Its a large plumbing/general use torch....

Dale

I guess that answers why, when I've been in at plumbing & welding shops, I look at the many various torches that are available & wonder just how different they really are to a HH. A lot that are designed to run on single fuel look almost identical to the HH, & some come in kit form with a hose & regulator.

I realise that the HH is designed to be used without a regulator - but wasn't it also initially designed to be used on a disposable MAPP cannister?

I'm purely speculating here - but to me there seems to be a lot more room for 'variables' when you are running a torch off of a larger 9kg (20lb I think)cylinder.... & there do seem to be many variables from everything I've read.

Don't mind me too much - maybe I'm just a control freak, but the again at the moment I'm finding it extremely disheartening wasting heaps of glass. I've tried everything else imaginable, it's officially the second day of winter here 64 deg so temperature shouldn't be the problem.

I'm willing to try anything that will maybe help me get away from the 'what can I burn today' mentality - lol.

Deb

Dale M. · #16 2007-06-01, 7:31pm

Consider this... A #1 disposable cylinder and a #20 cylinder of propane at same temperature has exact same vapor delivery pressure...

It chemistry and physics....

Dale

DaBatt · #17 2007-06-01, 7:45pm

I totally agree to that in principle, but why then in theory are the results not the same?
I've read of people (& have experienced personally) having problems with the small MAPP cannisters when they get down to 1/2 full & having to prop them into a bowl of warm water to get the required delivery pressure & yet with a 20lb cylinder the opposite seems to be true.

Just as a matter of interest, I seem to recall the person I dealt with regarding my cylinder mentioned it running at around 197 PSI when it was full & at around 120 when it got down to half full.

Chemistry & physics are not my strong points & I'll happily leave that to the experts.

Deb

Dale M. · #18 2007-06-01, 8:27pm

Its because the rapid removal of the vapor has a freezing effect on liquid and temperature drops causes pressure drops....

#1 cylinder does not have enough surface area (thermal mass) to dissipate cold unlike larger volume of #20 cylinder....

Putting #1 disposable cylinder in pan of water is cold sinking the cannister or essentially drawing off the cold into surrounding water... Essentially you are creating same situation as #20 cylinder in that you are creating a larger thermal mass to keep propane warm.

Internal tank pressure is a function of temperature. Only time you get significant pressure drop (assuming constant temperature) is when tank no longer has any liquid gas in cylinder to boil off into a vapor... So if tank is full or 1/4 full, pressure should be constant if temperature is constant.

Dale

jokersdesign · #19 2007-06-01, 8:45pm

check this out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MAPP-OR-PROPANE-...QQcmdZViewItem

Dale M. · #20 2007-06-01, 9:40pm

$29.95 in any hardware store........

Bernzomatic Swivel Head Torch - TS839T

http://www.nextag.com/Bernzomatic-Sw...30/prices-html

Dale

jokersdesign · #21 2007-06-01, 9:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

$29.95 in any hardware store........

Dale

lol, good point.

I just posted it because it is a single fuel torch with a built in regulator

Dale M. · #22 2007-06-01, 9:47pm

And it has a unfocused flame... Poor torch for glass work.

Not only that, the hype on ebay sale is pure BS...

Dale

jokersdesign · #23 2007-06-01, 9:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

And it has a unfocused flame... Poor torch for glass work.

Dale

every single fuel torch I used has a unfocused flame. but isn't it kinda funny how the ebay sell it stating in his auction that you can work 2 mm glass tubing?

mandyjw · #24 2007-06-02, 5:21am

I talked to Dad and the pressure on the regulator is 30-60 and right now it is set at about 45. We are waiting to see what will happen this winter when the tank pressure drops.

Dale- Dad says you really know your propane.

DaBatt · #25 2007-06-02, 6:07am

thanks a million for all the information, & for checking the details with your Dad. I'm at least going to give this a try (assuming I can get the right kind of regulator here!).

Your beads are wonderful - I just hope that one day I can make something half that beautiful!

I've been hesitant to even ignite my torch lately, figuring it must just be 'me' (always aware that "only a poor workman blames her tools").

Down here in NZ it seems that there is no-one to ask face to face - as very few people actually do lampwork, & it seems those that do are nowhere near my city & don't use a HH. Most people I've approached in the gas/welding industry haven't even heard of lampwork!

Getting a hose that fitted the HH & would to attach to my bulk fuel tank was an interesting experience (our threads on the cylinders are different). I knew that if I got one from the US it wouldn't fit at the cylinder end & I'd then have to track down some sort of adaptor, I also knew that a lot of gas appliances do still come here from the USA. I did some reasearch then I visited or rang every place in town & after a lot of blank looks, finally managed to get a hose with the right connection on both ends (at the last place I visited - lol). The guys there have become my heros, there is nothing they won't do & are more than willing to try things out & are happy to let me go away & test the results.....so here's hoping!

Thanks again
Deb ~ feeling slightly more positive now

bhhco · #26 2007-06-02, 6:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandyjw

I talked to Dad and the pressure on the regulator is 30-60 and right now it is set at about 45. We are waiting to see what will happen this winter when the tank pressure drops.

Dale- Dad says you really know your propane.

Very good information...

Now... since the "HH" has gone through various design changes over time, lets see if we can pin down which model HH you have...

Got a picture? Does it have a little sticker on it with a date? Any words, like "Mag" stamped into the brass?

It might be the latest model, and that the orifice on the new 'minimally adjustable' flame HH (basically just on/off) enables the torch to be regulated down... a lot.

....Dale's probably still asleep... you know those California surferboy types don't get up early unless the waves are really rad.

Me

jokersdesign · #27 2007-06-02, 6:24am

the hot head actually had different models, how many different models?

Is one better then the other?

How do you tell the difference?

bhhco · #28 2007-06-02, 6:42am

Yes. several. Some appeared to be manufacturing efficiency changes, such as different tube lengths, threading lengths, etc.. Some cosmetic, such as different valve knob size and knurl patterns. And some were primary internal component changes, such as rubber seal vs cork seals; and most recently the orifice (previously referred to as a replaceable spud) which meters gas flow.

Better? Long time users swear by the older 'more adjustable' models... and seek out garage sales for them. Newer users do not have that frame of reference and just use what they get - and based on their results... they get quite a lot and produce truely outstanding beads with it. So 'better', is like 'pretty'... in this case... its' in the hand of the holder.

There are surface visual cues. The earliest models had a tapered neck to a shouldered main body and knurled brass knob fastened on with a screw. There are internal parts cues, including seals, orifice size, sintered pressure reducer, etc. - but to get to those requires disassembly and can affect torch performance. The newest model has 'no user replaceable internal parts', and disassembly is discouraged.

Me

jokersdesign · #29 2007-06-02, 6:51am

I don't want to get to off topic but I had a few other questions.

If the firework torch still made?

I have both the firework and hothead. Why is the hothead the choice?

I like the fireworks flame better, but I like the all brass hothead body.

My hothead has mag smtp, the bottom has a cork seal, and there is no flame adjustment compared to the fireworks torch, just on and off. It appears that it can't be disassembled. Does this tell you enough to know what model it is?

bhhco · #30 2007-06-02, 6:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokersdesign

I don't want to get to off topic but I had a few other questions.

If the firework torch still made?

I have both the firework and hothead. Why is the hothead the choice?

I like the fireworks flame better, but I like the all brass hothead body.

My hothead has mag smtp, the bottom has a cork seal, and there is no flame adjustment compared to the fireworks torch, just on and off. It appears that it can't be disassembled. Does this tell you enough to know what model it is?

I'll pm ya.

Me