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2010-04-05, 9:35pm
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Member
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CLOSED: The GTT Lynx, the Cheetah, or another torch entirely? (newbie question)
I've made my decision - I'm on the waiting list for a Scorpion. Thanks to all who responded to my original question:I've had a HH for about a month now. I run it on 1 lb. MAPP gas cylinders and I'm very frustrated with it. I want to upgrade to a better torch, but I don't know much about torches (or even glass) yet. So I know it's a little premature, but I won't continue beading on a HH without pulling all my hair out shortly. So I need some advice from the more experienced.
Here is what I want to do:
1) I have an Invacare 5, I don't want to use tanked O2 unless it's just for secondary use, like an outer ring on a torch that would only be used occassionally
2) I can get another oxycon if needed (or two more even)
3) I want to run my torch on natural gas (residential supply)
4) My budget is about $600 for the torch
5) All I've worked on to date has been soft glass, so I know nothing of boro - maybe I'd like it, maybe I wouldn't - ideally, I'd like to keep my options open
6) I definitely want to continue doing beads, but if I have any aptitude for it, I would also like to do small sculpture (I'm also very intrigued by wine glass making or working with hollow rod).
7) (from post below) One of the things I'm currently having difficulty with on the HH, and I don't know if this would transfer to any other kind of torch or not, is that when I want to just heat a precise area of my bead, I wind up over heating the entire bead. This could be because I am new at it and don't know what I am doing, or it could be because I am working on a HH and it isn't hot enough sometimes (depending on the level of MAPP in the cylinder the pressure changes while working), or just because the flame isn't precise enough. But whatever the reason, I definitely want to make sure that whatever new torch I get will be adjustable enough to produce a precise flame when needed.
That about sums it up. So is a Lynx the torch for me? The Cheetah? What's the difference really? If the Cheetah has a larger flame, does that mean it doesn't have as defined and fine a flame as the Lynx? Is there another torch I should be considering?
My main reason for choosing GTT torches was their supposed efficiency in burning fuel with their triple mix design. I understand that these torches are less likely to introduce impurities to the glass (something I've been suffering with on the HH). So a clean flame is like a call from the Siren's to me right now. Their website states:
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GTT torches truely provide every flameworking artist with the ability to get more out of their color pallates in either hard or soft glass. The Triple Mix design allows one to get brighter, fresher colors out of whatever glass one works.
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I realize that some of my wants just might mean upgrading to a larger torch in the future, like maybe the Phantom, if I actually have any aptitude for this at all.
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
Dana
BTW - Does anyone know how to test the purity and psi you're getting out of your oxycons?
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2010-04-05, 11:13pm
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PyronamixK
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Join Date: Jun 24, 2005
Location: Spatula City
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I upgraded from a HH to a Lynx, and then from the Lynx to the Phantom (and this is when I met my husband).
I think moving to a Lynx was a great move for me, but you're not me. What do you envision yourself making and how soon (realistically) do you think it will be before you are there? I love love love the Cheetah, but if you think that you will want to go bigger and bigger and maybe even do goblets, then it would be a good idea to start with the Lynx and move up over time. The Lynx is the centerfire of GTT's two stage triple mix torches.
Oh, and about the oxygen... The Lynx will work soft glass beads (up to an inch easily) and some small boro on an Invacare. If you plan to work bigger/hotter/faster, then you will want more oxygen. Now, the Lynx on 5 LPM 5 psi produces the same flame as it does on 5 LPM 8 psi. However, once you add more LPM (like with two 5 LPM machines or one 10 LPM machine), the pressure output of the concentrator comes into play. The Lynx on 10 LPM at 8 psi is better than the Lynx on 10 LPM at 5 psi. What this means for you... you could get a Lynx and run it on your Invacare for now and have a lot more heat than you do with your HH, and then upgrade your concentrator set-up a little further down the road. At that point, it will be a nice difference and will be like getting a bigger torch. Once you outgrow that set-up, you can move up to a two stage torch and still have your concentrator set-up on your centerfire and run the outerfire on tanked oxygen or add to your concentrator set-up and run the whole torch off of it. It all depends on what you want to do as to which way is best.
I will tell you that GTT triple mix torches like to have at least 2-2.5 psi for the fuel. Household pressure (1/4 psi) NG isn't very satisfying. You can get a NG booster if you are set on using NG. Is propane out of the question? Triple mix torches are very efficient and burn it nicely. It is also easier to tell when you are in a reduction flame while using propane (the tips of the candles have color to them).
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Kimberly
working glass since 1990 - melting it on a torch since 2002
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2010-04-06, 4:53am
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Look into a Scorpion also, though the cost is just above your $600. It's $650, I think. It has a centerfire that is the Cricket and then the outside ring which is a tad bigger than the Cheetah, best of both worlds. Of course you will have to get at least one more oxy concentrator. I've had the Cheetah and the Scorpion, and love them both, but the Scorpion runs better on less oxy.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2010-04-06, 6:05am
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Dangerous Woman
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Join Date: Nov 21, 2005
Location: Southcentral PA
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I used a Lynx for a few years then got a Cheetah. My Cheetah needs to go in and get cleaned so I re-hooked up my Lynx. Oh Boy! The Lynx flame is much smaller than my Cheetah but very hot and I am having a very hard time getting used to it again. I was thinking of selling my Cheetah to get a Scorpion, now I'm wondering if I would be better off keeping the Cheetah as a back up instead and selling my Lynx.
I don't know if this helped at all.
__________________
Nancy
May your torch burn brightly and your oxy never run out. - Karen Hardy
On a Cheetah with a hurricane Still have my Lynx as a back up.
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2010-04-06, 6:07am
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Join Date: Mar 19, 2010
Location: Bloomfield, MI
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Kim, thanks for the very thoughtful reply. So psi does matter, that is really good to know. I could also get an older model Invacare 6 or an Invacare 10 with low purity (I don’t know how low). Do you know what the psi would be on those models? What about using a 10 with the 5 I already have? How is psi calculated when you use multiple oxycons, added together, averaged? Are some oxycons incompatible with others?
Do you know how I can test the purity of the total output? Propane is not an option at this time, as I have no way to run a temporary hose into my studio unless the hose were 50+ ft long and that just doesn’t seem practical or safe.
Pam, good idea on considering the Scorpion if I push my budget a little more (or DH ). What do you think about the differences between the quality of the “Cricket” flame on the Scorpion, as compared to the Cheetah? I’m wondering how much difference there really is between the standard surface mix and the triple surface mix. Any and all details would be helpful.
Thanks,
Dana
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2010-04-06, 6:12am
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Senior Member
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I LOVE my Lynx! I spent too long on a hot head and had a bit of adjustment time getting used to the Lynx but it wasn't long & I wouldn't trade it for anything! I do covet the scorpion though, someday!!
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2010-04-06, 6:16am
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Nancy, what do you primarily make on your Cheetah? Is your Lynx flame actually hotter than the Cheetah?
One of the things I'm currently having difficulty with on the HH, and I don't know if this would transfer to any other kind of torch or not, is that when I want to just heat a precise area of my bead, I wind up over heating the entire bead. This could be because I am new at it and don't know what I am doing, or it could be because I am working on a HH and it isn't hot enough sometimes (depending on the level of MAPP in the cylinder the pressure changes while working), or just because the flame isn't precise enough. But whatever the reason, I definitely want to make sure that whatever new torch I get will be adjustable enough to produce a precise flame when needed.
Pam, what do you think about the precision of the Scorpion vs. the Cheetah?
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2010-04-06, 10:42am
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Senior Member
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"Pam, good idea on considering the Scorpion if I push my budget a little more (or DH ). What do you think about the differences between the quality of the “Cricket” flame on the Scorpion, as compared to the Cheetah? I’m wondering how much difference there really is between the standard surface mix and the triple surface mix. Any and all details would be helpful."
The Cricket inner flame of the Scorpion is in no way comparable to the Cheetah flame. The Cricket flame is small and used by me for more precise targeted heating. The outer flame of the Scorpion combined with the Cricket flame is, to me, somewhat larger than the Cheetah flame. I don't really notice a lot of difference in the extra oxy feed that the Cheetah has. With the Scorpion I can always open up the oxy on the outer ring if I need an extra oxygenated flame, which leads to your next question:
"Pam, what do you think about the precision of the Scorpion vs. the Cheetah?" There is much more preciseness to the Scorpion because of the ability to use the center fire, plus making it even more adjustable by adding differing componenet of the outer ring (i.e. more oxy or more propane, depending on the reaction you are looking for). I love the Cheetah, don't get me wrong, but as with any torch, you have to learn to use what you have. Rarely, if ever, do you find a "perfect" torch. With the Cheetah I learned that for precise targeted heating I used the side of the flame or the bottom. It's very possible and doable. It's easier and somewhat more exact to have a center flame that you can go to for targeted heating.
However, you need to get many opinions, because everyone bases their judgment on what they do and how they do it and their experience. I, for instance, make very large soft glass beads. For someone who makes small beads the Cricket may be the perfect torch, or if you have a Cricket and make larger beads, you may not be as impatient a I am. I like almost instant gratification, or as near to it as possible, and I got that with the Cheetah and I am still getting it with the Scorpion, for what I do.
I do want to add that I have owned and used many, many torches over the 20 years I have been playing with fire and I have yet to find a torch that is even close to as good as a GTT torch. Of course, then, others' opinions may vary.
__________________
Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2010-04-06, 11:34am
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Pam, thanks so much for the expanded details. I looked up your work in another thread. Absolutely gorgeous dragons, what fabulous work!
I'm starting to get sold on the idea of the Scorpion now. It seems like a torch I could possibly grow with....
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2010-04-06, 11:42am
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I actually do think it is a good option for a torch that is very versatile. You can start out, if you like, by only using the Cricket inner flame and then as you are more comfortable with that, expand to using the larger flame. Of course, if it was me, I would jump right in with both feet and use both together, lol. Everything you get is going to seem smaller in comparison to the HH flame, but it is just more focused with lots more heat, faster melting, etc.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2010-04-06, 3:47pm
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Hi Dana
If I were I three years ago and if I had a budget of $600 (+), I'd definitely go for the GTT-Scorpion. Unlike you, I did not start lampworking on a single fuel torch, but like you, I got hooked right away and I instantly knew that lampworking would be "my thing". Like Pam, I am one of the lucky owners of a GTT-Scorpion torch and I have to admit that I just really love this torch and in my opinion it could be the torch you are looking for since the questions you are asking are incredibly precise and well defined – you seem to know what you want. As the Scorpion disposes of in fact two torches, you could easily consider it to serve as “just” a Cricket at first. You could simply run the interior Cricket on just one oxygen concentrator in the beginning i.e. for the first few weeks or months you’ll be owning it and then upgrade to the “real” Scorpion as soon as your founds will allow you to buy a second oxygen concentrator. Such a period of “waiting” time will allow you to get used to a single stage oxygen/fuel torch before “upgrading” to the outer flame of the torch you already own! The Scorpion is the most versatile torch I’ve ever seen, and its cost-performance ratio is pretty well as GTT still sells it at an introductory price. I guess you’re certainly going to find the right solution and I’m wishing you good luck with your decision!
Martina
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Martina Marugg-Zinn
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GTT-Scorpion, Carlisle Lucio Burner / 2x8l 17.5psi concentrators
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2010-04-08, 9:32am
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Covered in glitter
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I'd push the budget a bit and get the Scorpion. I LOVE mine! Just make sure you get it with the introductory price or it goes up quite a bit I think.
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2010-04-09, 7:25am
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I'm on the list for a Scorpion
Thanks so much to everyone who replied. The Scorpion lovers have convinced me. It seems to be an all around great torch. I can start on it as a Cricket then add more OxyCons, a foot pedal, and the outer fire ring as I progress. Plus I also talked DH into it.
Now the wait is on....
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Dana
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2010-04-09, 9:38am
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Congrats, Dana. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy mine.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2010-04-09, 9:54am
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PyronamixK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhousedc
Kim, thanks for the very thoughtful reply. So psi does matter, that is really good to know. I could also get an older model Invacare 6 or an Invacare 10 with low purity (I don’t know how low). Do you know what the psi would be on those models? What about using a 10 with the 5 I already have? How is psi calculated when you use multiple oxycons, added together, averaged? Are some oxycons incompatible with others?
Do you know how I can test the purity of the total output? Propane is not an option at this time, as I have no way to run a temporary hose into my studio unless the hose were 50+ ft long and that just doesn’t seem practical or safe.
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Congratulations on the Scorpion! I think given your fuel and oxygen situation, you will be most happy with it.
To answer your questions, there are two versions of the Invacare 10. One puts out 5 psi and the other puts out 9 psi. I don't know about a 6. You could hook up the 5 psi version of the Invacare 10 to run with your current machine. Whenever hooking two or more machines together, it's best to have them putting out within 2 psi of each other. There are exceptions to the rule and conditions where they can be different and work o.k. together, but for all-around use, it's best to use like machines with like machines.
Low purity is something to be avoided. It will cause your flame to be a little reducing and not as hot. Some colors will be sensitive to this, too. Poor purity can also be a sign of poor concentrator health. There could be a leak or the sieve could be shot. If you know in advance that the machine is putting out poor purity, you ought to avoid it. It could mean more costly repairs in the future and it could also mean that you won't be getting the most out of your set-up.
About the 50 ft thing... Do you not have a window in your studio? How are you venting your exhaust? Are you going through a wall with your ductwork? You could pipe propane in through the same exterior wall, if you wanted to.
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Kimberly
working glass since 1990 - melting it on a torch since 2002
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2010-04-09, 11:10am
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I'm working in the old/original laundry room, no windows and far from exterior entryways. I am venting through the roof, just as the dryer used to and taking fresh air in from the garage (neighboring room) rather than stealing air from the house. That way in the summer the air won't be as hot or as cold in winter as it is outside.
Thanks for the tips on the oxycons. I guess I'm not going to be able to increase the psi by hooking multiples together.
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Dana
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2010-04-09, 2:16pm
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Dana: Congratulations to your choice!
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Martina Marugg-Zinn
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GTT-Scorpion, Carlisle Lucio Burner / 2x8l 17.5psi concentrators
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2010-04-16, 6:28pm
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Dangerous Woman
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Location: Southcentral PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhousedc
Nancy, what do you primarily make on your Cheetah? Is your Lynx flame actually hotter than the Cheetah?
One of the things I'm currently having difficulty with on the HH, and I don't know if this would transfer to any other kind of torch or not, is that when I want to just heat a precise area of my bead, I wind up over heating the entire bead. This could be because I am new at it and don't know what I am doing, or it could be because I am working on a HH and it isn't hot enough sometimes (depending on the level of MAPP in the cylinder the pressure changes while working), or just because the flame isn't precise enough. But whatever the reason, I definitely want to make sure that whatever new torch I get will be adjustable enough to produce a precise flame when needed.
Pam, what do you think about the precision of the Scorpion vs. the Cheetah?
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Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. The Cheetah has a wider flame than the Lynx. But the Lynx flame is very HOT. Maybe because it is concentrated? My Cheetah really really needs to be cleaned - one port is completely closed and at least 4 others are almost clogged shut. But I was used to the bushier flame. Without actually having used a Scorpian I think you will be happy with it. I think I will be happy with one too!
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Nancy
May your torch burn brightly and your oxy never run out. - Karen Hardy
On a Cheetah with a hurricane Still have my Lynx as a back up.
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