back flow

[Mr. Meker]

I have a hard time believing that normal lampworking is worse for your health than taking a walk down a busy street. As long as you aren't fuming or using silver glasses, cars and torches emit similar gasses. Cars are burning gasoline or diesel, which is like a long string of propane. They burn it with air, which contains oxygen and nitrogen. Carbon monoxide is not the main hazard of glass working. Nitrogen oxides are. Carbon monoxide burns itself because it is not fully oxidized and it gives of heat when it oxidizes. When nitrogen combines with oxygen, it absorbs heat. This occurs when nitrogen contacts the hot lampworking flame and when fuel vapors and are compressed to 4400 psi in an engine cylinder. These do not destroy themselves because they absorb heat when they oxidize. These gasses exit the flame/exhaust pipe and either sit in the stagnant air or get ventilated by a well designed fan system.

I don't think that the video in the first post is very relevant to glass working. I'm going to guess that a hair dryer is a lot more than 5,500btu as Mark says a lampworking torch is. All this video is showing is air of different densities, not different gasses. Nitrogen oxide looks the same as hot or cold air.

Don't take me wrong, ventilation is important. My studio is outside with a roof and one wall. I have a large fan. It passed the smoke and insence test with flying colors.

[NMLinda]

Originally Posted by meker

I have a hard time believing that normal lampworking is worse for your health than taking a walk down a busy street.

Interesting thought. You're right, the by products of car emission and torch combusion are similar, with N0x being problematic for lampworking, but I'd say that what makes lampworking worse is two-fold: proximity and dilution. Most of us work with our faces relatively close to the flame and therefore in close proximity to the flame plume (and being short, what I worry about is whether I can keep my face out of the plume....) Many of us do this for hours. Few of us choose to have our faces that close to the exhaust pipe of a running car, and certainly not for hours. Also, and although air polution on a busy street can be significant, there is greater air volume to provide dilution than what many of us have available to us as we torch. High air polution areas, such as LA, do cause serious health impacts over time, but my impression is that folks without adequate ventilation as they lampwork seem to feel the health impacts fairly quickly.

Mark has posted other videos like the one he used to kick off this thread - one in particular was a butane lighter, if I recall correctly. The plume it showed was more similar to the photos in the article I mentioned earlier, and closer to our situation as we torch. My take-away from Mark's initial post is a reminder that there's more going on around hot objects than can be seen with the naked eye, and that turbulence around a hot object can be chaotic and hard to predict. All the more reason to be careful and thoughtful about ventilation, as you've chosen to be.

Linda

[Dale M.]

Facts on Carbon monoxide poising...

http://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm

Facts about health issues of inhaling Nitrogen Oxides (NOX)

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts175.html

Quite frankly, why take the chance..........

Dale

[Mr. Meker]

I'm not taking a chance or encouraging others to do so. I am just pointing out that people encourage others to have excessive ventilation. Just set it up the right way and don't fret.

If you have ever smelled nitric acid or nitrogen oxides, you know the scent. I smell it every time I am next to a running car. The only time I have ever smelled it lampworking is when I am standing behind my fan and the torch is on.

Safety is a touchy subject, and it is best to error on the side of caution.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by meker

I'm not taking a chance or encouraging others to do so. I am just pointing out that people encourage others to have excessive ventilation. Just set it up the right way don't fret.

If you have ever smelled nitric acid or nitrogen oxides, you know the scent. I smell it every time I am next to a running car. The only time I have ever smelled it lampworking is when I am standing behind my fan and the torch is on.

Safety is a touchy subject, and it is better to error on the side of caution.

Sort of sounds like a bit of a retraction from other post....

Not touchy unless you blatantly disagree and are arguing from a uninformed position......

Better to error on the safe side and go a bit excessive than to go on the poor side and unconsciously harm ones self.....

I personally opt for the safest possible solution and encourage other to do so, and try to post the best possible advice... If one chooses to use it or ignore it, its your decision.......

Dale

[AcidFly]

All I got left to say is !
Safety first and all the info you can get and read to make a informative choice is 100% right.
BUT to bluntly say someones vent system is bad that they build and did the research and read there ass off to make their vent, Is by no means any good it is just wrong.
You don't have my system at your house and have no idea on how good or bad it is. I believe trying to vent the fumes as close to the flame is the way to go !
Also I do not believe any fumes or smoke are getting by the 1/2-1 mph wind that i am making around my torch area, and is adequate and in some ways better then a hood.
How can fumes escape a constant air flow that my funnel is making but you think it can raise 2-3 foot to a hood with out being bounced around by the moving air of the flame ?
if the air flow the flame is making is bouncing off the back stop "like most people have their touch setup" why could it not be bouncing the fumes right in your face ?
What I'm saying is if my funnel system is pulling the fumes away from me and trying to suck them out 6 inches from there source were the hood dependents on the fumes rising 2-3 foot then i will pick the funnel.

Maybe we should just ware space suits that would be the safest way LMAO

so for me to be safe You guys are say that maybe i should use my funnel but maybe make a small hood and put a small hole in my vent pipe at the top to remove any excess fumes that might have escaped the funnel and are sitting in the hood ?
I still have my Foam board hood i made at first " the one that would not clear the fumes and smells" that i could cut in half and hang above my bench.
In my picture you can see the hood to the right, were i had the torch set up before i moved it. I made it from the plans in the "complete book of glass bead making" and cut it in half so it would hang from the wall.
Would that make you happy and feel that I'm safe ? so i can put this subject/problem to bed ?
also in my picture the funnel is now about 5-6 inches from the flame as I added about a foot to the length.
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/up...?viewid=189332

thx
AcidFly

[Dale M.]

I find it ironic, the people come into this forum asking advice, and when advice is given, they poo-poo it or criticize that advice.......

I think this thread is no longer valid.....

Dale

[NMLinda]

Originally Posted by AcidFly

All I got left to say is !
Safety first and all the info you can get and read to make a informative choice is 100% right.
BUT to bluntly say someones vent system is bad that they build and did the research and read there ass off to make their vent, Is by no means any good it is just wrong.
You don't have my system at your house and have no idea on how good or bad it is. I believe trying to vent the fumes as close to the flame is the way to go !
Also I do not believe any fumes or smoke are getting by the 1/2-1 mph wind that i am making around my torch area, and is adequate and in some ways better then a hood.
How can fumes escape a constant air flow that my funnel is making but you think it can raise 2-3 foot to a hood with out being bounced around by the moving air of the flame ?
if the air flow the flame is making is bouncing off the back stop "like most people have their touch setup" why could it not be bouncing the fumes right in your face ?
What I'm saying is if my funnel system is pulling the fumes away from me and trying to suck them out 6 inches from there source were the hood dependents on the fumes rising 2-3 foot then i will pick the funnel.

Maybe we should just ware space suits that would be the safest way LMAO

You're being rather defensive. On this and a couple of other threads, folks did their best to try to answer your questions, gave you information to help you appreciate why they gave the advice and suggestions they did, and were motivated to try to help you be safer. You've clearly misunderstood some of the posts and have now extrapolated way beyond what anyone was trying to suggest to you.

The laws of physics are the laws of physics. You can believe what you wish - as you seem prone to doing - but that won't change those laws. If you think your ventilation system is so perfect and so great.....show us the analysis that backs it up, or show us industrial data that supports the effectiveness of your design, or show us smoke test videos of it operating or show us Schlierien photos. To my knowledge, no one else on this board has for your design. You might be onto an innovation that may only need a little more modification to be great. Like I posted earlier, there doesn't seem to be much information out there about these funnel systems, so instead of spending your time flaming people who were trying to help you, why don't you spend your time making a real contribution? Do a smoke bomb test and post a video, for pete's sake - small smoke bombs are cheap, and practically all cell phones can take a video these days. If your system captures all the smoke, great - we've all learned something. If it doesn't, we've still learned something we didn't know before and it's still a valuable contribution to this community.

Linda

[lenora]

What is it about ventilation threads??? LOL!

[AcidFly]

OK guys here is what you asked for THE SMOKE BOMB TEST if you want the other stuff get the equipment and come on over. I believe this passed the test and would suck the back flow as well.

but just in case I am going to start a new thread and post this, then if anyone has questions or want to try different test then we can

I have 60 smoke bombs left !!

http://img697.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smoketest.mp4


AcidFly

[NMLinda]

Originally Posted by AcidFly

OK guys here is what you asked for THE SMOKE BOMB TEST if you want the other stuff get the equipment and come on over. I believe this passed the test and would suck the back flow as well.

but just in case I am going to start a new thread and post this, then if anyone has questions or want to try different test then we can

I have 60 smoke bombs left !!

http://img697.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smoketest.mp4


AcidFly

COOL - Thank you!! I'll join you over in the other thread because I do have a couple of tests it would be great to see if you wouldn't mind doing them on your design (and if I were remotely close to you - or anyone! - I'd be over in a hot flash - test like this are fun, as well as important). I wanted to acknowledge you here, first, however, for sharing the test you posted in your link.

Linda

[Dale M.]

Good, now how about complete specifications of your system...

You system as shown in this test sequence is obviously different than some of the configurations shown in some of the pictures in other threads...

To bad smoke bombs are illegal or hard to get in Calif....

Dale