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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2007-09-04, 4:51pm
Zulekah Zulekah is offline
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Default Lead in Glass

Hi,

I am just wondering why lead in glass does not seem to be a concern, whereas lead in other things (like paint) is. I am interested in trying out Satake lead glass.

Does anybody know anything about this? Thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 2007-09-04, 5:00pm
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The higher the c.o.e the higher the lead content. The brighter the colors the most likely the higher of c.o.e. and lead

The makers of the glass do not need to say the % of lead content if it's under 39%

If it doesn't have lead it's pyrex.

Lead makes the glass flow.
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  #3  
Old 2007-09-04, 5:05pm
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Plus, the issue with paint and toys and stuff is kids eating it-pulling the paint off the wall and eating the flakes, or eating a toy with lead, thus causing a large amount of lead to get into their system and poisoning them. It's rare, but it happens.

Put a huge disclaimer on your work that it is NOT to be ingested, and I think you'll be safe
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Old 2007-09-04, 5:26pm
Zulekah Zulekah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre View Post
The higher the c.o.e the higher the lead content. The brighter the colors the most likely the higher of c.o.e. and lead

The makers of the glass do not need to say the % of lead content if it's under 39%

If it doesn't have lead it's pyrex.

Lead makes the glass flow.
OK, thanks! I'm a bit confused because Satake comes in either soda or lead, but it sounds like even the soda Satake must have lead in it.

Anyway, now I see that I've been using lead all along even with Moretti, so as far as safety, I guess all is well...
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  #5  
Old 2007-09-04, 7:17pm
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There may be concerns with boiling the glass and having the lead vaporise, as well as using objects made with exposed lead glass to eat.

Then again, we are already using a torch, lots of metals in the glass, lots of metals in foil or leaf form, fuming...

I know that pottery glazes can leach lead out into its contents, but I can't see it being a big problem.
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  #6  
Old 2007-09-04, 8:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilglass View Post
Put a huge disclaimer on your work that it is NOT to be ingested, and I think you'll be safe
Just thought this was funny!
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  #7  
Old 2007-09-04, 9:13pm
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Not sure that you have anything to worry about...since Lead Crystal has been around for decades. but...
The concern about lead crystal glass is that certain foods, over a given amount of time and stored in crystal containers (like decanters) can leach the lead out quicker over time. Foods especially acidic, like wine, vinegar, tomato, citrus, etc. leach lead more redily than other "foods". Lead glass is categorized by having a larger amount of lead in it's composition, typically above 25%.
I don't know the percentage of Satake's lead content, but it could be looked into. At any rate, everyday soft glasses the lampworkers, or fusers use is going to be below the 25% range, unless specified. That being said, the glass industry readily uses lead as a flux, so chances are at some point, you're going to be using a glass that has SOME lead in it anyway.

For what it's worth, here's an exerpt from WIKIPEDIA:

"The addition of lead oxide to potash glass also reduces its viscosity, rendering it more fluid than ordinary soda glass above softening temperature (about 600 C), with a working point of 800 C. The viscosity of glass varies radically with temperature, but that of lead glass is roughly 100 times less than that of ordinary soda glasses across working temperature ranges (up to 1100 C). From the glassmakers perspective, this results in two practical developments. First, lead glass may be worked at a lower temperature, leading to its use in enamelling, and second, clear vessels may be made free from trapped air bubbles with considerably less difficulty than with ordinary glasses, allowing the manufacture of perfectly clear, flawless objects. When tapped, lead crystal rings, unlike ordinary glasses. Consumers still rely on this property to distinguish it from cheaper glasses. Since the potash ions are bound more tightly in a lead-silica matrix than in a soda-lime glass, the glass when struck absorbs less energy. This causes the glass to oscillate, thereby producing its characteristic sound.[1] Lead also increases the solubility of tin, copper, and antimony, leading to its use in coloured enamels and glazes."

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  #8  
Old 2007-09-04, 9:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre View Post
The higher the c.o.e the higher the lead content. The brighter the colors the most likely the higher of c.o.e. and lead

The makers of the glass do not need to say the % of lead content if it's under 39%

If it doesn't have lead it's pyrex.

Lead makes the glass flow.
Um, ok...


There's some pretty sound information on the glass alchemy website:
www.glassalchemyarts.com

Here's a handy number (quote) "If you are working with lead-containing glasses for food or beverage applications, the International Crystal Federation (phone 202-342-8400) can be a valuable source of information and guidelines."
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  #9  
Old 2007-09-04, 9:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre View Post
The higher the c.o.e the higher the lead content. The brighter the colors the most likely the higher of c.o.e. and lead

The makers of the glass do not need to say the % of lead content if it's under 39%

If it doesn't have lead it's pyrex.

Lead makes the glass flow.
Hiya toots!

A bit of clarification. More appropriately, the higher the lead content, the higher the coe. While it's true that boro doesn't have lead, neither do many soft glasses. It's the boron that makes it hard glass and soda-lime that makes it soft glass.

To the original question... Renee's post is spot-on, acids can over time cause lead to leach from the glass. But it takes time, it should be fine to drink from lead-crystal but probably not such a good idea to store acidic liquids in it.

While flameworking a bit of lead will gas-off as the glass is melting, but if you've got adequate ventilation and don't "hunker-down" over the torch it shouldn't be a problem. The lead content of the soft-glasses we typically work with is fairly low. As Heidi said, the lead is used to help the glass flow and "fit" with other glasses more readily.

But once our work is ready to be worn or fondled, the lead is safely locked into the glass matrix. There used to be a myth that glass armonica players would die from lead poisoning from constant contact with the lead-crystal bowls in the instrument, but that myth's been since put to rest.

I did see someone working with some neon tubing once, which I suspect had a significantly higher lead content than the soft-glass we use in flameworking, and as the tube was heating about 3 inches of tube on either side of the flame was fumed in silver color... I'm assuming it was lead... yikes!
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  #10  
Old 2007-09-04, 10:10pm
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Hi all,

The percentage of lead in Satake is 0.1 % for the lead glass rods. I do think there will be some lead in the Soda glass rods as wel but i aspect this to be much lower in percentage.

I have been working with Satake in the past and did not have any problems. accept for once when my ventilation wasn't working properly. I got an headache after about 2-3 hours. So i just stopped for the day.

Chrissy
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  #11  
Old 2007-09-04, 11:25pm
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I don't use Satake, but I've used Arrow Springs before, love them, and noticed they're a distibutor of Satake. Perhaps they can shed some light. Their website seems to have some good info on the glass. I'm sure if you called them, they might have some additional information about the glass....just a suggestion.

Satake, as explained by Arrow Springs has a COE of 120 (!), and says the leaded colors are not compatable with the soda-lime colors. (Satake...or "other" Soda-lime?!!! Hmmm...)
They do not carry the soda-lime colors (Satake brand) anyway.

Humph...I dunno!

Good Luck
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Last edited by JetAge Studio; 2007-09-04 at 11:32pm.
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  #12  
Old 2007-09-05, 12:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulekah View Post
OK, thanks! I'm a bit confused because Satake comes in either soda or lead, but it sounds like even the soda Satake must have lead in it.

Anyway, now I see that I've been using lead all along even with Moretti, so as far as safety, I guess all is well...
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Moretti doesn't have lead in any of it. Bullseye, OTOH, has quite a few colors that are leaded - surprised me how many.

(The Moretti info came from Mike A).
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Old 2007-09-05, 5:33am
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Also to keep in mind, is that some of the other metals in the glass are at LEAST as toxic as lead if you breathe them in. cadmium, arsenic, silver and gold (to name a few) all toxic and all used in glass colorants, and/or fuming processes. More reason to have excellent ventilation.
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  #14  
Old 2007-09-05, 6:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre View Post
The higher the c.o.e the higher the lead content. The brighter the colors the most likely the higher of c.o.e. and lead

The makers of the glass do not need to say the % of lead content if it's under 39%

If it doesn't have lead it's pyrex.

Lead makes the glass flow.

Pyrex (and other borosilicate glasses) use boron compounds as part of the flux. There are lots of glasses that don't contain lead or boron that aren't Pyrex.

A lot of soft glasses, including Moretti/Effetre, have lead in them. EDP and striking red both contain lead, to name a couple. Many of the metallic reduction effects that are created on glass surfaces are metallic lead that reduces out of the glass (from lead oxide).

Robert
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  #15  
Old 2007-09-05, 6:42am
Zulekah Zulekah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetAge Studio View Post
I don't use Satake, but I've used Arrow Springs before, love them, and noticed they're a distibutor of Satake. Perhaps they can shed some light. Their website seems to have some good info on the glass. I'm sure if you called them, they might have some additional information about the glass....just a suggestion.

Satake, as explained by Arrow Springs has a COE of 120 (!), and says the leaded colors are not compatable with the soda-lime colors. (Satake...or "other" Soda-lime?!!! Hmmm...)
They do not carry the soda-lime colors (Satake brand) anyway.

Humph...I dunno!

Good Luck
Renee
Thanks for the info! I saw that Arrow Springs only sells the leaded, and I think I will send them an email asking about it.
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  #16  
Old 2007-09-05, 6:46am
Zulekah Zulekah is offline
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Hey everybody, thanks for all the info!!! I now feel that lead poisoning is not in my future, which is comforting, after reading what it can do to you.

Cheers
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  #17  
Old 2007-09-05, 6:59am
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Ok. This is where I asked about the lead. I posted a thread in the Safety section a few months ago - http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=49098

I just now realized that I misunderstood Mike's answer. He did NOT say that there wasn't lead in Moretti (I don't think - I didn't re-read it all). What he said was that it probably wouldn't pose a problem.

So, forget my post. I completely screwed up the info I had. And honestly, all this time I was wondering how it was possible that Moretti couldn't have lead in it. I'm such an idiot!
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Old 2007-09-05, 8:22am
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I'm thinking idiot is a harsh word. Good info in the thread.
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Old 2007-09-05, 3:32pm
Zulekah Zulekah is offline
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Quote:
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I'm thinking idiot is a harsh word. Good info in the thread.
My thoughts exactly!
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Old 2007-09-05, 4:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulekah View Post
My thoughts exactly!
Me too! You're too hard on yourself! Aww, everybody makes mistakes, but a REAL idiot is someone who doesn't admit to making a mistake. Thanks for your input!! This is a great subject.
Renee
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Old 2007-09-06, 6:49am
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Thanks all! I really don't understand how I read it wrong, but I did. I really am a very intelligent person but lately I just can't think. I suffer from CRS, I drop things, spill things, I have NO vocabulary left what-so-ever, I write things down and then forget I did it.... I know what I want to say and either forget in that split second or just can't "find the words" to say it so it never comes out.... I use to be very organized and observant. I'd always "get it" and very very quickly - I pick up EXTREMELY fast. Not anymore! I really do feel like a big huge idiot!

Sorry if I offended anyone with my choice of adjective but lately it totally fits.

And I am enjoying this thread. Anyone else got anymore input??

Thanks again guys! I appreciate it!
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Old 2007-09-06, 10:25pm
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One more thing; If you're in doubt about the lead in your piece, weather it be a food bearing object, or a jewelry intended piece, there are lead testing swabs you can purchase. I personally have not used them, and am not sure how effective they are (manufacturers should disclose a number for the consumer), or under what circumstances lead can be leached from everyday use by wearing leaded glass beads in jewelry, but here's just one option...
http://www.leadtestkits.com/kits4.html

But, again, jewelry made from lead glass, PROBABLY won't effect people adversely....however I do know a few people who's bodily chemistry is quite acidic . Who knows, I don't have the answer to this, but atleast one can test!

Good luck!!
Renee
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  #23  
Old 2007-09-07, 3:54am
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Quote:
The percentage of lead in Satake is 0.1 % for the lead glass rods.
I don't know where you got "0.1%" but I'm told by a reliable source that it is around 33%.
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Old 2007-09-07, 10:19pm
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I don't know much about the lead content with Satake, but I do know that if you heat it too much, you can boil it, and it will release probably more toxic fumes than if you were to just melt it.

The Japanese torches don't burn as hot as our torches (they are propane/air rather than propane/oxygen) so the risk of boiling them is much lower using one of these torches. Also, people use it on a HH all the time, and I haven't heard of much problem with that. I know with a MiniCC it's very difficult to keep from boiling the lead glass of Satake.

Very very small amounts of Satake soda lime will work with their leaded glass. For instance, we used soda lime yellow for our stamen cane, with all the rest lead colors for the lily murrini we made in the Akihiro class at the Glasshive. I guess that's similar to using a little bit of Reichenbach (96) with Moretti (104). It will work, you just have to watch proportions. Also, if you look at the Tonbodama book, they use soda lime glasses with lead glasses, I'm guessing in keeping with the theory that a little bit will work, a lot...well....not so much.

I feel like I'm just babbling now, so I'll shut up and go to bed. =)

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Old 2008-06-26, 10:19am
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Don't most people drink wine from lead crystal and isn't wine high in acid?
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
Don't most people drink wine from lead crystal and isn't wine high in acid?
Drinking wine from lead crystal is OK, storing it isn't. It's a matter of length of contact.
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Old 2008-06-26, 10:32am
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The lead in 'lead crystal' won't leach out in the time it takes to consume a glass of wine. Leaving wine, or more likely a fortified wine like port or sherry, stored for a longer period of time in a decanter or other lead crystal container will leach lead from the glass into the beverage. It's not likely to cause an immediate or severe lead poisoning, but it will increase your intake of the element. Short term use is OK, storage is not a good idea.

Robert
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Old 2008-06-26, 11:30am
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Because the lead in glass makes in cleaner (free of bubbles) and allows full melt at lower temperatures, many prefer high lead content glass like Gaffer for casting. If I want to pour cast Spectrum or Bullseye, I have to melt to 1800F or higher and accept that it's relatively thick and won't cast into fine detail. If I use Gaffer, I can pour it at 1600F and it'll pick up hair thick detail. It's also near perfect clarity - free of bubbles. Gaffer is COE 96. Although it's the same COE as Spectrum, the difference in clarity is instantly recognizable. The difference in performance is even more dramatic. Spectrum pours like thick syrup - Gaffer like light oil.
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  #29  
Old 2008-06-26, 10:41pm
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HMMM, bringing back this thread makes me want to re-evaluate my custom blended vinegar stored in "artisan" bottles...ha ha ha!
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Old 2008-06-27, 8:24pm
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when my sister took her son for his yearly checkup, the lead test questionnaire specifically asked about hobbies related to glass. The physician asked her if my nephew was exposed to lampworking. So, I decided to check it out.

Gaffer (furnace frit) conducted a study to determine the level of lead emissions. In order to give worst case results the lead monitoring was carried out in the studio of local artist melting 2 x 25kgs of casting crystal at 870oC (1600oF) in a deliberately unventilated room. All doors and windows were shut. The results from this study showed that the lead levels were 5x below OSA guidelines and 3x below US OSHA guidelines.

Here's the link to the entire article, (just scroll down to find it) it's titled Casting Crystal Lead Emissions.

http://www.gafferglass.com/technical/casting.htm

If you're worried about exposure, you can also perform a lead-wipe test..I completed a lead wipe test in my studio (directly on the desk in front of my torch and then on the floor area right behind my torch) and the results came back way below the lead level standards.

I do use some Satake and I don't have any paperwork, but I understand it's low in lead. And not a health risk.

Goodluck!
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