Bulk Mapp & Hotheads

shari · #1 2007-12-01, 7:03pm

I'd like to open a discussion on this subject, I know there are a lot of them already, but still being the only person I know of that had a real problem, I'd like to be able to say I addressed it.

For those not in the know, this is what happened. I'm working on a hothead, with an aluminum tank which holds 7lbs of MAPP. The connection between the hose and torch failed. This would be where the hose itself is crimped onto the farrel.

The hose popped out, the fuel coming out of the hose then ignited with a bang, and I was left with a big flashburn from an explosion that actually knocked my didy's off from my face.

So.. I have been against using this set-up pretty much since it happened with the idea in mind that the hoses are just not built to handle that kind of pressure.

With reading of posts and time going by.. I also came across a post by Dale M. where he talks about getting hoses stamped with the rating and such.

The more I think about it, the more I think he is right. BUT I had my hose put together at a big welding supply while I was still up in Grand Rapids. so at that point, what do you do? I obviously am not on the bulk hothead set-up anymore. However I am still afraid for people that are. It bugs me and I want to address it. I believe now that it was just my hose was put together poorly. So do I tell everyone to make sure to get pre-fab in-the-package or whatever hoses? What should the hose really say? I want to know because it's become really important to me to try to inform and prevent this kind of thing from happening to someone else. If there is a spcific rating or something on pre-fab hoses that help the situation, I would like to add the info to my sig. Thanks.

NLC Beads · #2 2007-12-01, 7:35pm

First, I'm glad you're as ok as you are - take care of yourself and heal well.

How long had you been using the hose - I thought they're supposed to be checked over fairly frequently and replaced every few years...? (Just because of the "while I was still up in Grand Rapids" part, don't know how long ago you moved...)

I'm on a HH with bulk propane and have had no problems, but my BF made my hose setup and checks it frequently...

Thanks for making us aware, I'm sorry it happened to you to cause this post.

shari · #3 2007-12-01, 10:48pm

I had been using it for about 6-10 months, something like that. This happened about 4 years ago now I guess. Wierd lapse in time I know, but afrter that happened, I got another hose and got back on the torch in the same week, and used it for a short time before I got my 8M. I was simply too scared to stay on my hothead.. so I upgraded. Sounds wierd, I know. Anyhoo. a little while after that I started working at a place learning glass blowing, and then got prego and stopped everything. I got back on the torch in the last couple of weeks, after about 28 months of nothing. So bringing this up now is just because I am just getting back into things, including hanging out on the boards.

Dale M. · #4 2007-12-02, 9:47am

Manufactured hoses, some times have UL approval, some times not...

Usually a PROPANE approved hose will have stamping in hose or printing on hose stating "LP or Propane gas approved", "Approved to 350psi", or other such nomenclature. Text will vary but the message should be the same.

Manufactured hoses are made under controlled conditions and usually the brass ferrule that clamps hose to barbed fitting and is crimped at pressure like 1000 psi so there is a complete and total seal. Hand made hoses in garage or at local welding shop do not have capabilities to produce these high quality crimps.

This is why the recommendation is to search around and purchase manufactured hose that meets all safety criteria.

Avoid any hose, packaged or loose that does not have any safety labeling on physical rubber or nylon part of hose stating its capacity for pressure and fuel type. IF hose is designated TYPE-T it IS Propane approved. Also ger hose long enough so tank can remain outside... Yes hose come in lengths up to 20 feet, if supplier says they "cant get longer ones" go some where else....

Beware of hoses made "off shore" the is no guarantee that they will have a strict manufacturing specification that is to your benefit.

Be informed and be safe...

Dale

shari · #5 2007-12-06, 10:38am

thanks, dale.

cadia · #6 2007-12-06, 11:01am

Thanks for posting Shari, for reminding me to check my hose periodically even though it has the required psi stamp!

laserglass · #7 2007-12-06, 11:45am

i have tried to keep a low profile here at LE, for many reasons, but this is a topic that i feel strongly about so i will chime in. i have been called names like alarmist, or crazy for my efforts to promote safety in hot glass activities. i have been on record for years and i am still on record, to my opposition of the use of a bulk tank with a hothead torch. i have stated that the only safe way to use a hothead torch with a bulk tanks is for the tank, the torch, and the entire hose to be outside. i am in strong opposition to the concept of keeping the tank, and most of the hose outside, running the hose through a doorway or window to use the torch inside. i don't care about the rating or markings on the hose. that hose has full tank pressure since the hothead is not designed to work with a regulator. that tank pressure can be as high as 250 psi in the summer with a full tank. at that pressure, the tank could empty in a few seconds into a massive fire ball that you would be lucky to live through. and since it is illegal in every state, your home owners insurance will not pay for your fire, and your medical insurance may not pay at all either.

shari, i am so glad you did not get hurt. please stop using the bulk tank, and stop listening to people who are trying to rationalize their own decisions. this is unsafe. it may be time to get a different torch. most fuel/oxygen torches operate with fuel pressures of 0.25 to 2 psi which is 100 to 1000 time less pressure. so any leak that may happen will be 100 to 1000 time less severe.

x_phoenician · #8 2007-12-06, 2:06pm

How scary Shari!
I was using a HotHead with bulk fuel this spring/summer, bought the manufactured hose, and never had issues. I worked near the doorway in our basement (sliding glass doors) assuming if it ever leaked I could jump up and turn tank off outside the door. Had no idea it could immediately ignite like yours did.

I'm glad I saw this, thanks for posting. I'll make sure my mother doesn't use my old setup either. I'm going downstairs to disassemble the hothead and hose. Not that we can use it now anyway, too cold here, but no point in leaving the equipment around.

Dennis Brady · #9 2007-12-06, 2:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

i have tried to keep a low profile here at LE, for many reasons, but this is a topic that i feel strongly about so i will chime in. i have been called names like alarmist, or crazy for my efforts to promote safety in hot glass activities. i have been on record for years and i am still on record, to my opposition of the use of a bulk tank with a hothead torch. i have stated that the only safe way to use a hothead torch with a bulk tanks is for the tank, the torch, and the entire hose to be outside. i am in strong opposition to the concept of keeping the tank, and most of the hose outside, running the hose through a doorway or window to use the torch inside. i don't care about the rating or markings on the hose. that hose has full tank pressure since the hothead is not designed to work with a regulator. that tank pressure can be as high as 250 psi in the summer with a full tank. at that pressure, the tank could empty in a few seconds into a massive fire ball that you would be lucky to live through. and since it is illegal in every state, your home owners insurance will not pay for your fire, and your medical insurance may not pay at all either.

shari, i am so glad you did not get hurt. please stop using the bulk tank, and stop listening to people who are trying to rationalize their own decisions. this is unsafe. it may be time to get a different torch. most fuel/oxygen torches operate with fuel pressures of 0.25 to 2 psi which is 100 to 1000 time less pressure. so any leak that may happen will be 100 to 1000 time less severe.

The illegality of keeping a tank inside is NOT universal. We have full permission to keep oxygen and propane tanks inside our shop and I know several home studios that enjoy the same full legal permissions. It's probably different everywhere, but where I am, the code provides the same allowance for oxy/propane as applies for oxy/acetylene. If it's firmly attached to a wheeled cart, in a place that can be easily and expediently wheeled out of the building, it IS permissible to use and store inside.

laserglass · #10 2007-12-06, 2:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

The illegality of keeping a tank inside is NOT universal. We have full permission to keep oxygen and propane tanks inside our shop and I know several home studios that enjoy the same full legal permissions. It's probably different everywhere, but where I am, the code provides the same allowance for oxy/propane as applies for oxy/acetylene. If it's firmly attached to a wheeled cart, in a place that can be easily and expediently wheeled out of the building, it IS permissible to use and store inside.

here is a link

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/li...ookie%5Ftest=1

check out documents 54 and 58

i would guess that 99% of the LE members here operate a studio in a residential code location and these rule apply. if you have a commercial or industrial environment, these rules still apply but you can maybe get a safety inspector to sign off on a waiver. oxygen tanks are not an issue.

Dennis Brady · #11 2007-12-06, 3:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

here is a link

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/li...ookie%5Ftest=1

check out documents 54 and 58

i would guess that 99% of the LE members here operate a studio in a residential code location and these rule apply. if you have a commercial or industrial environment, these rules still apply but you can maybe get a safety inspector to sign off on a waiver. oxygen tanks are not an issue.

My interpretation of that is that NFPA 54 para 1) exempts portable LP gas equipment not connected to a fixed pipe. It may (or may not) be different in the US) but Canadian fire inspectors have decided that the same rules that authorize acetylene welding equipment on wheeled dollies apply equally to propane systems mounted in the same way. If you put your propane tank on the floor, it's NOT acceptable. If you strap it to a fridge dolly it IS acceptable. At least that's what our fire inspector has ruled. Anyplace it's okay to use an oxy/acetylene, it's equally okay to use an oxy/propane torch. This is not my opinion - it's my local Fire Marshal's.

laserglass · #12 2007-12-06, 5:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

My interpretation of that is that NFPA 54 para 1) exempts portable LP gas equipment not connected to a fixed pipe. It may (or may not) be different in the US) but Canadian fire inspectors have decided that the same rules that authorize acetylene welding equipment on wheeled dollies apply equally to propane systems mounted in the same way. If you put your propane tank on the floor, it's NOT acceptable. If you strap it to a fridge dolly it IS acceptable. At least that's what our fire inspector has ruled. Anyplace it's okay to use an oxy/acetylene, it's equally okay to use an oxy/propane torch. This is not my opinion - it's my local Fire Marshal's.

dennis, did you even read what happened to shari? if she would have had the tank on a dolly inside, it would not have made her situation any better, possibly even worse. you are giving people mixed signals. it is never ok to have a large propane or mapp gas cylinder inside a home or small studio. i do not know how you can rationalize advising otherwise.

Dennis Brady · #13 2007-12-06, 5:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

dennis, did you even read what happened to shari? if she would have had the tank on a dolly inside, it would not have made her situation any better, possibly even worse. you are giving people mixed signals. it is never ok to have a large propane or mapp gas cylinder inside a home or small studio. i do not know how you can rationalize advising otherwise.

Each individual can decide for themself whether or not they think it's safe to have a tank inside. My comment refers to whether or not it's legal. You specifically stated it's illegal. My local Fire Inspector says it is legal if the tank is on wheels. Your local inspector might rule differently.

JenniferP · #14 2007-12-06, 5:56pm

Well! I don't know what to think! An explosion would be my worst nightmare!

Shari..I'm glad you were OK and recovered.

I just today ordered a hose from Arrow Spriings that is speficially to run from a hothead to a bulk tank with no regulator required. And of course, I'm running the hose through the window in the basement.

Now what do I do? After reading this...I don't know what to do!

JenniferP · #15 2007-12-06, 6:18pm

Does anybody have this same hothead hose from Arrow Springs?

Any recommendations as to where to buy a hose with the special adaptor to fit on a hothead on one end and a propane tank on the other? Any recommendations?

Dale M. · #16 2007-12-06, 8:48pm

Hose specification are similar to any camping bulk fuel hose...

For the hose you need , torch end is male 1x20 (tpi) disposable container fitting (same as top on #1 cannister) ... Other end is standard POL (propane tank) connector....These are "propane industry standards".

If hose has male (disposable canister threads) on one and female thread on other end (same as connector on HH base) you need an adapter that adapts female "disposable" connector to POL tank connection...

These hoses are not something mystical. They have been a camping industry "staple" since people started using bulk propane (or1! pounders ) for camping...They have been around for years.

Typical hoses can be found here...

http://www.mrheater.com/productdetails.asp?catid=52

Any adapters can be found here...

http://www.mrheater.com/productdetails.asp?catid=53

Hose you want is similar to F273702 at Mr Heater site.

Your local hardware store may even have these... Try the sites "Find a Retailer" option to see if there is retailer near you.

POL is an abbreviation for Prest-O-Lite. Some people think it means "Put On Left" which is appropriate as connector does have left-hand threads but its not true...

Dale

CelesteK · #17 2007-12-29, 5:17pm

My husband got my hose from a local ranch supply store. It is the Mr. Heater brand that Dale talks about. I tried it today for the first time. I still have the beads in the kiln so I don't know how they turned out. I really liked that the flame stayed the same the whole time. I'm a little paranoid about things now...
Celeste

shari · #18 2008-01-26, 3:05pm

Yeah, it wouldn't have mattered where I had the tank, the hose would have blown no matter where I was, it just went. Believe me, I'm glad I wasn't seriously hurt too. It's funny that I just realized this thread is still kind of alive, as I was torchin' yesterday and had a peice of glass shock really bad, and actually ducked, thinking it was happening all over again.. lol. I still have PTSD from it. I can laught about it now, I guess that's the important part. That was like 4 years ago.. and definately yes, I dont work on that set-up anymore. I have an 8M on house pressure LP and a concentrator. Wouldnt turn back. I would never endorse hothead/bulk tank again, for sure. BUT if someone asked me about hoses... I would tell them I absolutely prefer them NOT use bulk set-up, but IF they feel them MUST, us a pre-fab hose and check them and change them often. But I would almost still feel like that's cutting my own toe off to say that I feel it's ok.. just because of my own experience, ya know?

MikeAurelius · #19 2008-01-28, 6:45am

The laws are different in Canada. What Dennis writes about SHOULD NOT be interpreted to be OK in the United States.

NFPA states unequivicably that bulk tanks are ILLEGAL to be in a residence in the United States.

Direct from the NFPA:

Quote:

The American National Standard for storage and use of propane cylinders is NFPA 58-2004, Liquified Petrleum Gas Code, which is adopted in all 50 states. NFPA 58 does not allow 20# propane cylinders to be used or stored in residences. This includes garages attached to residences, and detached garages. Use is permitted to a limited degree in industrial buildings, but only where it would be impractical to locate the cylinder outdoors and pipe the gas in.

The major hazard is not BLEVE, but overheating and release of the propane torch fire, which can extend 20 ft from a cylinder (from the pressure release valve). This can spread fire horizontally, and can be a significant threat to firefighters.