Comparison of Kugler 104 to ASK 104

nagibeads · #1 2008-04-04, 7:29am

I ordered a bit of the Kugler 104 line to compare with the ASK glass colors.
The package arrived yesterday. I haven't melted any, but from the looks of the rods, they are the same as ASK 104.
The Mediterranean Olive rods are undistiguishable from the Mediterranean Olive rods of ASK. the same size and color(and yes, it is the lighter version of the olive, not the dark one that was so pretty).
The new color sand brown looks alot like Strawberry sweet vetro--creamy beige with streaks of a light red brown.
When I have a chance, I will post pics(probably Saturday afternoon)...the Silver Rattan and Silver Cinnamon replacements look different but just slightly.

If anyone else has pictures or rods or beads to compare ASK and Kugler, please post!
Thank you!!!

Firebrand Beads · #2 2008-04-04, 11:23am

I wonder if there was more variation between the earlier ASK batches and the later ASK batches?

Jane P · #3 2008-04-04, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagibeads

I ordered a bit of the Kugler 104 line to compare with the ASK glass colors.
The package arrived yesterday. I haven't melted any, but from the looks of the rods, they are the same as ASK 104.
The Mediterranean Olive rods are undistiguishable from the Mediterranean Olive rods of ASK. the same size and color(and yes, it is the lighter version of the olive, not the dark one that was so pretty).
The new color sand brown looks alot like Strawberry sweet vetro--creamy beige with streaks of a light red brown.
When I have a chance, I will post pics(probably Saturday afternoon)...the Silver Rattan and Silver Cinnamon replacements look different but just slightly.

If anyone else has pictures or rods or beads to compare ASK and Kugler, please post!
Thank you!!!

Thanks, I am looking forward to your results.

Reenie · #4 2008-04-04, 11:43am

Great! I as well would love to see some pics and to know how it's working. Make sure you use other glass with it like Moretti or Vetrofond. I hope they got it straightened out

Irene

nagibeads · #5 2008-04-04, 11:58am

We shall see....
I have varying success with ASK + silver glass or ASK+ Moretti/Vetrofond,
so I am expecting about the same with the Beadmaking 104 line.
Weird...
Some of the beads I make from a single session crack and some don't. I am figuring that it is the ratio of each glass I used and how I used it in the bead..... A friend of mine suggested a higher annealing temp, so I am going to do that for the tests, too.
One color that seems to be ok for me is the Scarlet Dreams--I encased it with Diamond Clear, fumed it, swizzled it with Double Helix glass and it was ok....
The Silver Cinnamon alone with Gaia stringer melted in cracked.
But Silver Cinnamon+ Terra was fine.....
Silver Cinnamon from the same session swizzled with Terra and Striking Color +encased with TAG clear=cracks
....but the Silver cinnamon/Striking Color Glass/encasement with Diamond clear was fine.
Also, ASK Mystic Grey swizzled with Striking Color Glass was wonderful---you gotta try it to see the reaction. I am going to watch these for the next month or so because that is when the cracking starts to show up.

sigh...I have a long project ahead of me but hopefully it will help!

tt4st · #6 2008-04-04, 1:03pm

Thanks for doing the testing. I'm really interested in knowing if the silver brown colors get the same sheen on them as the ASK did. I, too, hold my breathe when I use them because the coolest reactions are always the ones that crack

Turning up the kiln helps but kills the cool silver reactions.

Chuckie · #7 2008-04-04, 1:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagibeads

A friend of mine suggested a higher annealing temp, so I am going to do that for the tests, too.

Does a higher annealing temp fix a compatibility problem, or does it merely delay the inevitable explosion? Would it be a good idea to melt a pad of a transparent Effetre and dab on some of the K-104 and look at it under a stressometer after annealing at the higher temp?

nagibeads · #8 2008-04-04, 2:10pm

Thanks Suzanne! I will try the reduction sheen at the higher temp and see...

Char--I wish I knew. I don't have a stressometer to test the glass...
It's going to be subjective, but I am going to do the stringer test .....

nagibeads · #9 2008-04-04, 2:17pm

I found this...wonder if it will work with glass....

http://mark.rehorst.com/Polarimeter/index.htm

squid · #10 2008-04-04, 2:19pm

I think the glass has to be transparent to check for stress, doesn't it?

I have the polrized film that I use.

nagibeads · #11 2008-04-04, 2:21pm

yes--but if I can thin it out, I am hoping it will be a bit transluscent and show the stress....

nagibeads · #12 2008-04-05, 8:01am

For Moretti and Vetrofond, I was thinking I would test:
Moretti regular Ivory and Vetrofond Dark Ivory, since I see these colors used alot with ASK colors.....
I am going to keep the number of colors to a minimum so this doesn't get too overwhelming

carolanne · #13 2008-04-05, 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagibeads

I ordered a bit of the Kugler 104 line to compare with the ASK glass colors.
The package arrived yesterday. I haven't melted any, but from the looks of the rods, they are the same as ASK 104.
The Mediterranean Olive rods are undistiguishable from the Mediterranean Olive rods of ASK. the same size and color(and yes, it is the lighter version of the olive, not the dark one that was so pretty).
The new color sand brown looks alot like Strawberry sweet vetro--creamy beige with streaks of a light red brown.
When I have a chance, I will post pics(probably Saturday afternoon)...the Silver Rattan and Silver Cinnamon replacements look different but just slightly.

If anyone else has pictures or rods or beads to compare ASK and Kugler, please post!
Thank you!!!

It's the same glass exactly - it was made in the same factory, using the same melting furnaces, and the same recipes. Same as any other glass, there are variations between batches... You can all read that on their website in English.

Like this rubino oro I have that almost looks transparent. What a shock THAT was opening up THAT parcel... but it strikes well, without burning out to gray immediately like some 5 orders ago...

I got a present of a bunch of different colours from the US and then another beadmaker sent me some of the Kugler and it was the same. It's very nice for stringer work which I do a lot of on Lauscha silver glasses, which I then fume with gold or silver. Beautiful effects. Not everyone likes reactive glass, but it's totally my bag.

I have not changed my annealing temperature from 980, and I run my kiln 10 hours minimum at a time for an 8 hour day, and I still get mirror shiny effects. Also with raku, which is a diff manufacturer of course... but my kiln is relatively tall, so maybe that makes a difference.

I do my testing for an hour everytime I torch. I test glass that I want to work with the next time I torch. My favourite Moretti colour still continues to explode without relenting, even after batch annealing all the rods... but that's life with glass.

And depending how long we work with a piece in the flame, we can be burning out chemicals and metals and totally changing the COE of the glass that we are using in the piece. Finding that balance between working as fast as possible while working as cool as possible, it a very delicate operation.

I guess it's why I am drawn to skulptural...

I just see it as more paint for the palette.

Smiles,
Carol Anne

nagibeads · #14 2008-04-05, 2:27pm

Thanks Carol Anne-
There was some question as to whether the copyright on ASK glass was for the name or the actual recipe. If it is the same, then this project is mute, and I will proceed as I normally do with ASK.
thanks!

beadworkstudio · #15 2008-04-05, 2:31pm

If all they have is copyright, then it can only apply to the name. They would have to patent the recipe. Likewise, they can only copyright the color names. You can't copyright a color.

nagibeads · #16 2008-04-05, 2:56pm

oh-
thanks Sheila!

Tanner Studios · #17 2008-04-05, 3:22pm

Carol, is right about same/same. Arrow Springs contracted with Kugler to product a line of 104 glass under the name ASK. Arrow Springs was unhappy with the quality control so they pulled out.

So the Kugler 104 will be based on what was created under that partnership.
Scott

Firebrand Beads · #18 2008-04-07, 2:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nagibeads

We shall see....
I have varying success with ASK + silver glass or ASK+ Moretti/Vetrofond,
so I am expecting about the same with the Beadmaking 104 line.
.....
Silver Cinnamon from the same session swizzled with Terra and Striking Color +encased with TAG clear=cracks

Hi - this caught my eye so I went to the torch this weekend and pulled out my Silver Cinnamon. Here is a base of ASK Silver Cinnamon, with a swirl of TAG Tibet (a silvered color) and a layer of TAG Super Clear. No cracks, two days out of the kiln, and this bead has been in a pocket with a chain belt (yes, trying to abuse it.) So I am curious about this continued testing... I know SC isn't incompatible with the TAG clear, at least.
And no need to hide behind the couch when telling Paul you are getting scum on his clear, lol! He won't shoot!

nagibeads · #19 2008-04-07, 2:52pm

thanks--whew

I will retest the combo, but it may be the mix of all the different silver colors +ASK+ encasement that is the culprit.
The cracking I got was on a large bead. I'll try it again using TAG silver and clear!

nagibeads · #20 2008-04-07, 3:15pm

BTW-- I love Taxco Turquoise--are you thinking of making it a regular color? I love how it reduces--and you can't see the irridescence in this photo, but it is purple and blue.
I like how on some beads it is a very light ethereal sea water color and others it is deeper!

Firebrand Beads · #21 2008-04-07, 3:31pm

Cool! Thanks for the pic... I am lobbying for Paul to make the Taxco again, and the Silver Fir. We are down to less than one lb of Silver Fir now, but I still have some of the Taxco on hand. I think it looks a lot like DH's Electra in the rod, but it seems quite a bit different in the bead. Would you call it more subtle than Electra? Or is that just me?

Chuckie · #22 2008-04-07, 3:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid

I think the glass has to be transparent to check for stress, doesn't it?

I have the polrized film that I use.

You can overlay opaque on a transparent base to check for stress. You can't use opaque on opaque, though.

And yes, two lenses popped out of a pair of polarized sunglasses will work. You hold one horizontal over the glass and one lense vertical underneath the glass.

nagibeads · #23 2008-04-07, 4:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads

Cool! Thanks for the pic... I am lobbying for Paul to make the Taxco again, and the Silver Fir. We are down to less than one lb of Silver Fir now, but I still have some of the Taxco on hand. I think it looks a lot like DH's Electra in the rod, but it seems quite a bit different in the bead. Would you call it more subtle than Electra? Or is that just me?

Oh my--I gotta go back and play with Silver fir now too

The Taxco is very pretty....I'm really glad I got some!

I'll cross my fingers that he will make more....
It is like a cross between Gaia and Elecktra only it doesn't turn red like Elecktra can(or maybe I haven't figured out how to do it? LOL!)...The irridescence is very nice too--a great bonus!

nagibeads · #24 2008-04-10, 7:34pm

This is the Tobacco (B-222) rods next to ASK Desert Chameleon.
The batch is must be new, as the colors are different.
The Tobacco is transluscent and a bit more brownish, but when melted it looks similar to Desert Chameleon.
Sorry for the bad photos--the sun is setting and dayight is almost gone.

Artistic License · #25 2008-04-10, 8:16pm

Is Kuglar and ASK different coe's? What I don't understand is, why would they make ASK glass if it's the same at Kuglar in color and formula unless one is a different coe?
Red

squid · #26 2008-04-10, 8:25pm

The Kugler beadmaking 104 was not perviously sold as a Kugler glass - in the US at least. It was available only as ASK through Arrow Springs.

Artistic License · #27 2008-04-10, 8:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid

The Kugler beadmaking 104 was not perviously sold as a Kugler glass - in the US at least. It was available only as ASK through Arrow Springs.

Ok but why did they have to use the name of ASK or Beadmaking 104 rather the the Kuglar name?

squid · #28 2008-04-10, 8:41pm

It is Beadmaking 104 by Kugler Colors - it does use the Kugler name, but they gave it also a separate brand name - presumably to differentiate it from their COE 96 glass.

Frogsongstudio · #29 2008-04-10, 8:53pm

Frantz sells it as ASK too. That's where I got mine.

Now I need someone to tell me what is and where can I find these Tag and Taxco colors pretty please!!!! And are they compatible (I mean really) with the 104.

Artistic License · #30 2008-04-10, 9:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid

It is Beadmaking 104 by Kugler Colors - it does use the Kugler name, but they gave it also a separate brand name - presumably to differentiate it from their COE 96 glass.

OK that's what I was getting at. It's a different COE....now that makes sense. Thanks Squidly, you're a peach *G*

Red