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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2008-04-29, 10:51pm
DaveF DaveF is offline
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Default OD'ing on mm and inches? Tubing, Bead Lining for the math challenged...

Hi guys...

Metric to Inches. Inches to Metric. Decimal inches to fractional inches. Metric MM to Fractional Inches! Geeeeez! I just wanna make beads! Well, sometimes ya just gotta do the math, or ask and wait for an answer, and hope it's right...

Lots of you don't need any help with this, so please feel free to skip it. Oh, you already have? See ya! But if you are still reading this, this is just for you. Rather than just throwing numbers and fractions at you, I'll try and give you an INTUITIVE feel for what's going on, and end the confusion for good, I hope.

Ok, this can seem confusing and complicated to some folks, but only until you get used to it. After that it's really pretty straightforward. I'll make it very slow, thorough, (therefore long, sorry,) and work a couple examples for you. I'll also talk a bit about figuring inside diameters of tubes given outside diameters and wall thicknesses, fits, clearance issues, and some other stuff.

If you are math challenged, get a calculator, or use your Windows calculator program. Work the examples with me. It'll help you understand and remember how to do it later so you can get your answer in 30 seconds rather than post a question and have wait every time you run into a similar conundrum.

The rules:
To get inches given mm, divide mm by 25.4.
To get mm given inches, multiply inches by 25.4.
To find a close fractional size, multiply the decimal INCHES, (not mm!) by 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, or whatever the reciprochal of the fractional size you're looking for is.

The metric system:
One centimeter (CM) is 10 MM (Millimeters.) One meter = 100 CM = 1000 MM = 39.37007874 inches

Some "yardsticks" for small numbers:
0.001 inch = one one-thousandth inch.
0.016 inch = 16 thousandths inch. (This is the wall thickness of 1/4 inch sterling silver tubing from Rio Grande, BTW.)
A piece of paper is about 5 thousandths inch thick.
A matchbook cover or cereal box cardboard is about 20 thousandths inch thick. 0.020 inch.)

Here's a trivial example that will help you keep it straight whether to multiply or divide:
We already know 1 inch = 25.4 mm, right?
So, let's convert 1 inch to mm: 1 * 25.4 = 25.4. Amazing.
Convert 25.4 mm to inches: 25.4 / 25.4 = 1 (inch.) Truly astounding! The music of the spheres! Oh, the harmony in this universe! But now you won't ever get confused about which to do, multiply or divide, if you just remember to do that test.

OK, so one inch is 25.4 mm.
Therefore, 1 mm is one part in 25.4, or 1/25.4 inches, or, (punch your calculator,) 1 divided by 25.4 = 0.039370079 inches.

To see how many (if any) 32's of an inch that is, multiply that decimal number by 32:
0.039370079 X 32 = 1.25984252 or, about one and a quarter 32's of an inch. But, hey, I bet you'd prefer some practical, and relevant numbers, right? OK, here goes:

Let's start by converting 1/4 to a decimal: (Again, just punch in 1 divided by 4, = 0.25 (Of course we all know that.)
But, how many mm is that? Since there are 25.4 mm in one inch, then 1/4, or 0.25, of that amount of mm should equal 1/4 inch.

So, that's just what you do, take .25 X 25.4 = 6.35 mm. Another way to say it is 1/4 of 25.4 = (1/4) * 25.4, or, just 25.4/4, = 6.35 mm. Same answer.

To go the other way, converting a given mm size to inches, we have to divide the mm's by 25.4:
Or, 6.35 mm divided by 25.4 = 0.25 inches.

Most often though, you won't have those nice well behaved decimals like 0.25, so, here's how to handle that:
Say you have a 5 mm thick bracelet, and you want the nearest fractional size.
5 mm / 25.4 = 0.196850394 inches. Yipes! That doesn't help much! Or does it? let's see if that decimal inch expression is close to an even number of 32's of an inch:

0.196850394 * 32 = 6.299212598 32's of an inch. We'll round that to 6.3 thirty-seconds inch. Hmm, that is closer to 6 than to 7, but depending on whether we're talking about a hole, or a rod, say a mandrel, we might want to round up or down...

First of all, 6/32 is 3/16, right? (We can always multiply the top and bottom of a fraction by the same number without changing its size, so (6/2) / (32/2) is the same quantity, 3/16. )

So, if I have a HOLE that is 5 mm, what fractional inch size would be a pretty good fit through it, in 32's inch language? The hole is 6.3 32's, so a 3/16 (6/32, same thing,) rod will fit through with some room to spare. How much room? About 1/3 of a 32nd of an inch. (The hole is 6.3 32's of an inch, right? Now try this: punch in 1/32 to convert that to decimal. You get 0.03125 inch. Now, divide that by 3 to see the decimal equivalent of one third of a thirty-second of an inch: 0.03125/3 = 0.010416667 inch. Let's shorten that to .01. That is One One Hundredth of an inch, or in my language, ten thou. (ten thousandths inch.) A piece of typing paper is 4 or 5 thousandths thick, so you'd have a snug fit with a piece of paper wrapped around a 3/16 mandrel going through a 5 mm hole, if that helps you visualize the fit. (.005 gap on each side, = .01 total clearance.)

The reason you have to be careful is, if you had a 5 mm ROD, and a 3/16 HOLE, the rod would be too BIG, by the same, albeit, TINY amount. That is an interference fit. Sometimes machinists do it on purpose, and force a slightly larger metal rod into a slightly smaller hole in metal, under huge pressure, so it sticks tight. We can't do that with glass, can we? For instance, if you have a bracelet that is 5 mm, (which is slightly BIGGER than 3/16, remember?) and a 3/16 MANDREL, you would need to coat your mandrel THICKER than 5 thou to increase the bead hole at least that far PAST 3/16 inch to fit the 5 mm bracelet, or as some have said, remove some glass. This is why UNLINED beads made on 3/16 mandrels will fit the 5 mm bracelets, only if you coat THICK, or grind out a little glass.

We could have started with 16ths rather than 32nds in the example above:
5 mm / 25.4 = 0.196850394 inches.
0.196850394 * 16 = 3.149606299 SIXTEENTHS of an inch. (Don't get mixed up, now, That is NOT 3.1496.. INCHES!)
We are over 3/16 inch by aproximately .149 or about 0.15 parts of another 16th: 1/16 = 0.0625, and, 0.15 times 0.0625 = 0.009375, just under the figure we got above, of 0.01, but that is just because we rounded the numbers DURING the calculations. Had we not rounded, the numbers would match exactly. In general, you're pretty safe rounding to the nearest thousandth inch, (3 decimal places,) or two decimal places when working with MM.

OK, now for the 1/4 inch mandrels, and the silver tubing. (If you kept the faith and waded through it all, I salute you. )

OK, your mandrel is 1/4 inch, and your tubing is also 1/4 inch, and your bead release makes the bead hole even BIGGER than 1/4, so we can be sure the tubing will fit through the hole, no prob. But, how big will the hole on the INSIDE of the SILVER lining be, and will it still fit the bracelet? The tubing from both Rio Grande and Santa Fe is 1/4 inch OD and has a WALL THICKNESS of 0.016 inch. Now, that is off the RADIUS, not the DIAMETER. To figure the inside diameter (ID) of the hole, we just need to take the outside diameter, (OD) and SUBTRACT TWO times the wall thickness: 0.25 - (2*0.016) = .25-.032=0.218 inch ID.

How much is that in MM? 0.218 * 25.4=5.5372 MM Viola! The hole is 1/2 MM bigger than the 5 mm bracelet, a nice easy slip fit, which is why, of course everybody is happy about 1/4 mandrels for lined beads with these bracelets.

Just thought that might help some of you who are struggling with this or other conversion issues, FWIW.

I do hope that helps, and I didn't "talk down" to anyone. Some folks never do this stuff, so somewhere, the basics needed to be spelled out clearly, I think. Be looking for new bead lining and cleaning toys, and BIG SS MANDRELS, at a very affordable price, very soon, from Art in the Round!

Take care now, and do the math with confidence!
Dave
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  #2  
Old 2008-04-29, 11:57pm
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Default !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um. WOW. In fact, HUGE WOW.

If it's possible, I think I feel stupider than I already felt!!!! Where were you when I needed you in high school algebra?

Seriously. Thanks for all of the information. Hope it will help at some point. I saved the information for future reference. You certainly put a lot of time into compiling some very useful information. That is extremely kind of you!!

However, it appears that I am a bear of very little brain. I'm afraid that I might need to locate a copy of "Bead Lining for Dummies" (at least when it comes to the mathematical calculations part).
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Old 2008-04-30, 12:04am
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thud..... okay thank you!!!!
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  #4  
Old 2008-04-30, 12:47am
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It is a pity that the USA doesn't just go metric like the rest of the world.
B
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  #5  
Old 2008-04-30, 2:58am
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OOH!. I went to this thread because I thought that you were talking about M&M's, the candy kind!!
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  #6  
Old 2008-04-30, 3:28am
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this is fantastic!!! Just when I thought I had it figured out (ballparking) here comes a math genius!!! AND HE MADE IT SIMPLE!!! Now if he can just figure out how to get those silver prices to come down, we could all line our beads!!!! THANKS!!!
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  #7  
Old 2008-04-30, 5:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway View Post
It is a pity that the USA doesn't just go metric like the rest of the world.
B

Isn't that the truth! I love how Eddie Izzard talked about this.



Dave - from a truely math challanged artist THANK YOU from the bottem of my

I still think doing math in your head is a superpower right up there with flying, leaping tall buildings, and being faster than a speeding train!
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  #8  
Old 2008-04-30, 6:31am
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You rock, Dave! Now if we can just get Corri to sticky this thread............
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Old 2008-04-30, 1:06pm
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Hey, if you have a Mac you can get a widget that does the conversion for you! Easy Peasy!
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Old 2008-04-30, 2:01pm
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Smile

Just purchased your BeaDreamer, tho. Looks great! Can't wait to try it!
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  #11  
Old 2008-04-30, 3:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnjoe View Post
Just purchased your BeaDreamer, tho. Looks great! Can't wait to try it!
Hi Samnjoe,

Thanks for your purchase!
Go to the Sale Rack forum, and look for the April BeaDreamer contest Chapter Four thread. Post a reply there, and you'll qualify for the drawing for prizes. If you want, I'll cancel your order, and you can re-order through the link in that post. That'll get you free shipping, and three feet of plastic tubing for lining 3/32 beads to keep them centered on headpins or small wire & string.

You can either PM me to cancel, or just re-order, and I'll see that & cancel your first one right away.

Best Regards,
Dave
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Last edited by DaveF; 2008-04-30 at 3:38pm.
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Old 2008-04-30, 4:58pm
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This is a whole lot simpler to convert metric to imperial and other forms of measurement and capacity....

http://joshmadison.com/software/convert/

And it can be right at your screen all the time for you...

Dale
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Old 2008-04-30, 5:08pm
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I do wish we would go metric. But in the meantime, I just let Google do the work for me!
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Old 2008-04-30, 5:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
This is a whole lot simpler to convert metric to imperial and other forms of measurement and capacity....

http://joshmadison.com/software/convert/

And it can be right at your screen all the time for you...

Dale

Ooooooohhhh aaaahhhhhhhhhhh. Me like!
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Old 2008-04-30, 7:29pm
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Wow Dave. That is a lot of information. Good for you for sharing. I hope that those that need help with this find it helpful. I think it would make a nice sticky.

As difficult as it would be to move metric, we really need to, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Old 2008-05-01, 12:19am
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I'm saving the info on my PC.

Thanks Dave.
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Old 2008-05-01, 2:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
This is a whole lot simpler to convert metric to imperial and other forms of measurement and capacity....

http://joshmadison.com/software/convert/

And it can be right at your screen all the time for you...

Dale
Brilliant. Thanks, Dale. What a cool little app!
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Old 2008-05-01, 3:10pm
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thanks!
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Old 2008-05-01, 3:43pm
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It's like being brought up speaking one language and learning another later - as compared with being brought up alternating between two languages. True bi-linguals can be fully fluent in two languages but those that initially only learned one are mostly fluent only in that one and must translate mentally for the other.

I'm bilingual in French/English but I'm in the measuremental non-fluent generation of Canadians that was first taught imperial when young then learned to use metric as a young adult. I can use metric, but don't think metric. I have to mentally convert to imperial to visualize measures. My children are bi-lingual and can think equally well in either system. I expect my grandchildren will be unilingual metric and I expect they'll refuse to use imperial for anything - as soon will the majority of the world.

I agree with the American posters here that suggest the USA should adopt metric. It's going to be increasingly difficult for your children as it becomes increasingly difficult to get any other country to accept any non-metric measure.
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Old 2008-05-01, 4:01pm
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Quote:
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It's like being brought up speaking one language and learning another later - as compared with being brought up alternating between two languages. True bi-linguals can be fully fluent in two languages but those that initially only learned one are mostly fluent only in that one and must translate mentally for the other.

I'm bilingual in French/English but I'm in the measuremental non-fluent generation of Canadians that was first taught imperial when young then learned to use metric as a young adult. I can use metric, but don't think metric. I have to mentally convert to imperial to visualize measures. My children are bi-lingual and can think equally well in either system. I expect my grandchildren will be unilingual metric and I expect they'll refuse to use imperial for anything - as soon will the majority of the world.

I agree with the American posters here that suggest the USA should adopt metric. It's going to be increasingly difficult for your children as it becomes increasingly difficult to get any other country to accept any non-metric measure.

That's exactly the way I am. Like when they give a description of someone as being "163 centimetres" tall. WTF?? And the only way that I can deal with weight is to equate 100 grams as being roughly a quarter of a pound. Not exact, but it works.
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Old 2008-05-01, 4:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherry View Post
That's exactly the way I am. Like when they give a description of someone as being "163 centimetres" tall. WTF?? And the only way that I can deal with weight is to equate 100 grams as being roughly a quarter of a pound. Not exact, but it works.
My preferred weight "conversion" is l lb = 450 grams.
My preferred height conversion is 2 metres is basketball or football player size. I'm 185 cm (6'0).
My preferred driving speed conversion is ignore it and drive however fast feels right. I often wonder if a judge would accept that explanation if I was ticketed speeding.
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Old 2008-05-06, 4:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway View Post
It is a pity that the USA doesn't just go metric like the rest of the world.
B
ROFL - I used to think that when I first started buying from the USA.
New Zealand went metric around 32 years ago - so it has become second nature to me.
However I have use the wee application that Dale posted the link too - I have done ever since it was installed on the very first internet capable computer I got back in 1999 - it is a life saver!!

What I do have to say though is even though we converted to keep in line with trade & export partners internationally, some industries & companies still work in 'imperial' measurements (probably those that import from or deal with the USA),- so it is always handy to become conversant with both.


The funny thing is that I automatically think metric in everything - except adult height & babies birthweights.....& now glass.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
This is a whole lot simpler to convert metric to imperial and other forms of measurement and capacity....

http://joshmadison.com/software/convert/

And it can be right at your screen all the time for you...

Dale
Thanks for this link Dale - I never did know where my brother got that application from & it's kind of nice to know I can just re-download it next time I rebuild my computer! (I've always saved it & reinstalled - lol)
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Old 2008-05-06, 5:15pm
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the conversion widget on a mac is awesome.

for those of you who don't own a mac - you can do this in google

xx in to mm

will convert whatever in inches to millimeters, including fractions as in:

3/4 in to mm, click search

google will give you:

(3/4) in = 19.05 millimeters

works on most conversions:
1 euro to US$, search
1 Euro = 1.5521 US$
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  #24  
Old 2008-05-06, 6:05pm
DaBatt's Avatar
DaBatt DaBatt is offline
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Join Date: Feb 20, 2007
Location: "The West Island" - Oz
Posts: 3,455
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Google gives you everything you need, well almost - & I've resorted to that at work at times - lol.
It can be irritating though if you are in a hurry - because depending on the parameters you use it will sometimes bring up pages as a result rather than it's own conversion in the top line (& yeah I inevitably stuff up & type the " instead of 'in').

But that wee PC application is handy though, for those of us with PC's - & it's an extremley small file on disk at less than 450KB.

My daughter wants a Mac laptop for school ....help!!
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  #25  
Old 2009-02-06, 11:31am
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MadelineBunyan MadelineBunyan is offline
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Join Date: Jul 19, 2008
Location: Devon, U.K
Posts: 1,426
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I have a converter on my Phone, its very handy. I was having a durr! moment with the fractional ones because my maths is about as rusty as the steel welding rods someone I know tried maiking beads on and then left them to soak cos they were stuck...for a week!

I have got it now. as for the rest of the world using metric...I dont know...the typical weight measure for a person we use here would be stones, then pounds. rather than all pounds. the typical height measure is feet and inches, yet everything else is metric...now that is screwy! I guess some places you might have your weight in kilograms, but I certainly don't know what I weigh in metric!or my height come to that!

As for visualising stuff and being bi-lingual in terms of the measurements...I do half and half, as soon as something gets smaller than whole inches I switch to metric!

anyway, now Ive worked it out om going to post the information I was looking for incase someone else is looking for the same:

a 3/32in mandrel is 2.4mm

a 1/16in mandrel is 1.6mm

a 5/64in mandrel is 2.0mm

a 1/4in mandrel is 6.4mm

a 1/8in mandrel is 3.0mm

feel free to add others!
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